Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Airmotive on March 24, 2005, 09:41:25 PM
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Okay, so the guy who did the last valve job wasn't a pro.... but damn!
I just bought this 2001 B6. I've rebuilt the carbs and done some electrical work. Took her out for the first time last weekend and thought a valve on the #1 cylender sounded pretty loose. I like a little valve clatter but this was a little too much for my taste. So I set aside some time for a valve adjustment of my own....
No nut or bolt on one of the exhaust valves. :bomb:
I'd post a pic if I knew how.
Luckily....really luckily...I found the hardware sitting in the top of the engine.
grrrrrr
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Dude! You are sooooo lucky...
I have a similar story!
I bought my current bike from a friend. It was a very clean machine but was also making more valve noise then my previous B-12. Sooooooo I decided to have a look and its a good thing I did. The first thing I noticed was that one of the valve cover locating pins was missing. After getting the valve cover off, I went to searching for it and found it in a pool of oil between the #1 exhaust and #1 intake valve. Many of the valves were also out of spec, on the high side. Its a darn good thing I checked. I shutter to think what might have happened if that sucker fell down the cam chain galley. There is no telling how long that sucker was in there, but it was at least 3,000 miles!
If you do your own valves, make sure you don't let these little suckers pop out and fall down in your engine.
(http://goldwing.bikepics.net/suzuki-gsf1200-00-bikepics-191861.jpg)
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how much is too lound for valve noise? I can walk about 10 feet away and still hear a slight valve ticking sound at idle over my scorpion exhaust. I'm at 8,500miles without an adjustment :roll: he he am I screwed?
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They usually tighten up when new, thats why the first adjustment is so quick... If it's too tight you'd know, you'd burn one.
Still a good idea to do it, if it's never been done. Just rolling the dice if ya don't...
how much is too lound for valve noise? I can walk about 10 feet away and still hear a slight valve ticking sound at idle over my scorpion exhaust. I'm at 8,500miles without an adjustment :roll: he he am I screwed?
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The only answer to how the valves should sound will be to check/adjust your valves to within spec, have reasonably fresh oil in it, warm it up, and listen. Memorize that sound for future reference.
Engines sound different and trying to describe how they should sound is like trying to describe a color to someone blind from birth. You should be able to hear them, much better to hear them than not, but how loud? Obviously not going like Thor's hammer, the only way I know is to do what I suggest above.
You could try to compare with other bikes (Bandits like your's,) or have a mechanic at a shop give you an opinion.
At your mileage you should check 'em anyway.
Steve
(Mike, not going at ya but I believe that it is more common for the valves to go loose as they seat, that creates more valve lash, they could go either way though and really should be checked as you suggest)
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Valve noise does not mean you're screwed....relax...it's quite the opposite. Loose valves cause no harm....as I just proved by have one valve screw and nut missing for God knows how long....Oh, and I forgot to mention that its neighboring valve screw was completely backed out.
(I found my harware between the #1 intake and exhaust valves too!!)
For reference....I could hear this valve at highway speeds. I could tell it was the #1 cylinder. The noise was loud enough for me to easily tell where it was coming from.
A good valve train sounds kind of like a dozen little mice working on typewriters in side the top of your engine. No single valve should stand out.
Valves are like children: you may not like the noise, but as long as you hear them, you know they're staying out of trouble. When they get quiet, it's time to look in on them and see what they're up to.
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how much is too lound for valve noise? I can walk about 10 feet away and still hear a slight valve ticking sound at idle over my scorpion exhaust. I'm at 8,500miles without an adjustment :roll: he he am I screwed?
Its time to adjust them. I would't wait any longer if it was my bike because I like piece of mind and I don't like worrying about anything mechanical. The valve adustment intervals are at 600 miles and 7500 miles and those are probably the most important ones. What you will probably find when you get in there is "tight" clearances. This happens as valves wear-in and become fully seated. After that, not much adjustment will be necessary (after about 10-15 K miles, or so).
The valve train on B-12s is loud and definately varies with engine temperature and rpm. The warmer the engine is the louder it is. My valve train is louder at idle than at 2-3K rpm. The sound should be fairly even but its not ucommon to hear a rogue /cam/rocker slap now and then. I personally think this has to do with the amount of lubrication thats getting up there. If it ain't getting oil, they will be louder. A loose valve clearance, on one cylinder or more, will show itself as rpm increases. In other word, valve "ticking" is loud, and stays loud as engine rpm is increased. Ticking is not to be confused with valve "clatter" which is a fairly rythmic, moderately quiet, and even rumble of the entire valve train. If your bike is excessively quiet, thats when you should start to worry.
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good info, I adjusted my valves very carefully and noticed a louder "tick" when done. Some of the valves were tight so i suppose this is good. I like doing routine maintenance myself. Go into a service shop and see who works on bikes. The skilled mechanics do not do routine maintenance, the "assistants" do. Usually young kids at minimum wage (Marine repair shops are notorious for this due to their business being so seasonal). Add to this time pressure and guess what you get.
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At your mileage you should check 'em anyway.
Steve
(Mike, not going at ya but I believe that it is more common for the valves to go loose as they seat, that creates more valve lash, they could go either way though and really should be checked as you suggest)
Yup, at 8500 miles, you're slightly overdue. You sholdn't be "screwed" though. Just, 'Get 'er done!'
There's generally two ways for mechanically actuated valves to fall out of tolerance from wear:
1) Getting loose from wear between the tip of the valve stem, rocker arm and/or cam lobe.
2) Getting tight from the valve heads sinking into the seats and/or the seats sinking into the head.
In the 600/1200 Bandit's case, initial break-in wear is usually #2.
Once settling in is complete (usually by 7500 miles), these motors hold tolerance very well.
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At 8500 miles I had checked/adjusted my valves 3 times.
I don't understand... you spend a lot of time asking about fairly obscure maintanace stuff (for a low mileage bike) like brake hoses, clutch replacement, etc. and you ingnore your valves which have probably needed work since 600 miles!! :shock: :?:
:roll:
If valves are loose (when you can hear them), you probably won't do any damage but you are certainly short on power/performance, especially in the upper rpm range. If they are tight (you can't hear them) you are probably short on power and looking at a minimum thousand dollar + repair bill with new valves, pistons and all the fun that goes with it when something breaks.
It's true you can may not need to adjust valves every 7500 miles once everything settles down, but you should still check them. Once you've done it once, it's a 2 hour job max. Bandit valves are so easy to do compared to most other bikes out there.
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Valves are one part that tend to get tight over time. Mainly because the valve face is just beating on the seat constantly, and the seat wears.
Tight valves are quiet and can cause big bucks in repair bills (Labor, seats, valves, cams, etc...). Loose valves are noisy and can rob power since the valve isn't opening all the way.
I checked mine for the first time when I got the bike with 12K on it (previous owner said the bike had "hydraulic valves" and didn't need adjusting). Only three were out of spec, the rest still on the tight side of spec. I adjusted everything as loose as possible, while staying in spec (.006" on the intake, and .009" on the exhaust), and I'll let them go for another 10K.... actually, my speedo hasn't been working (broken cable, snapped in the $80 hub drive) and I haven't fixed it, so I'll check them again once I wear out the set of Metzeler Z6s' I put on at work today. :bigok:
You can generally tell what condition your clearances are in by a few hints. How quiet/loud they are, and drastically tight, a noticeable loss in power... as well, a major hint to tight valves is how quick your engine returns to idle when you blip the throttle. A slow return means tight valves.
After all is said and done, it's not a very hard job when compared to other bikes (like my TL1000- all the plastics go, drop the radiator, remove the tank, then you can get at the front cylinder), and shouldn't be neglected.
:blahblah:
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Both Paul's and B12's reasoning is sound. I guess I assumed that they were loosening with seating (backwards logic) because I have found way more loose valves than tight ones on the bikes that I have adjusted. I surely agree that the tighter valve is way more serious a problem, I just have never seen that many go tight.
Seems to me that I should have, I just didn't. Regardless you go with what you've got - not what you expect. That is one reason you measure.
Steve
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I am about to learn the fine art of valve adjusting tonight. This will be the 600 mile service (well close enough) and I'll be curious to see how close to spec they are.
I am fortunate to have the one and only terrebandit to walk me through this. :banana: Even though everyone sez this is a simple procedure it still looks complicated. I think it is best to do as much of your own work as possible so you know its done and (hopefully) done right. I sure ain't saving any money in time invested but I am learning a lot about the bike. I too have seen some dealer shops I would not want my bike in. :shock:
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Got the 600 mile valve adjust done last night under the watchful eye of terrebandit. It was good to know that all valves were in spec - one set spot on, one set on the loose side and all others were on the tight side. We went ahead and matched them all to the middle of the the spec and put it all back together.
The most important thing I found was to just take your time and not get flustered... one set in particular I fiddled with 3 or 4 times and had a few choice words then realized I was trying to hurry things. Settled back down and got it right the next time.
Learning how to do it right and do it yourself is very cool... Nice to know the exact set-up for future reference to see how things are adjusting from wear. The other thing is I suspect the dealer mechanic would have checked them, found them in spec, did nothing, buttoned it up and charged me a ton.
YeeHaw.... break-in is just about over and the only limits will be red-line and posted speeds!!!!
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Got the 600 mile valve adjust done last night under the watchful eye of terrebandit.
I certianly didn't have to watch very close. You did great Jay! I was there mainly for moral support! :congrats:
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I bought my first B12 about a month ago. It ran 100%. for 10 days. 97 model. 17K miles. Previous owner was anal. He even had the box some little accessories came in. His garage had everything label. He did the small maintenance (chain, oil etc.) but for the big (his words) jobs (valves etc.) he took it in. Had paperwork. Thing is showroom. I have owned Yamaha 11's and v-max., goldwings, Honda cb750's. And a variety of dirt, dual sport bikes. Have always done the maint. myself. But this one I am a little concerned about. I did not own it long enough to know what it is suppose to sound like or run like.
A noise developed on the lower left engine, at first thought I thought it was the alternator bearing. Sounds like pennies bouncing around a tin can. Not piston slap, lower end bearing or anything in that area. But like when a water pump is about to go. Plus it does not like to run less than 3000 rpm. This make city driving bad. Either it is stalling or people look at me like I am A-hole. The choke works but seams to reach a point as it get turned back where it just is off 100% or 75% on. It take (on cool mornings 40's) about 15 miles to warm up. Everyone says it is known to be cold blooded, but 15 miles. Plus the valves are load, nothing like the other big fours I owned. I am waiting for gaskets to come in to tear into it. Any thoughts. When it is warm and running above 4k hang on. OH one other thing. Is there a mercury switch that kills the engine in an emergency, like laying it down? The few times I had to brake hard the engine died. My Yamaha had a switch that would kill the engine. But you had to lay on the brakes, this one, and a two figure hard brake will kill it.
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I didn't see that you found the parts, sorry.
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GB, no mercury switch. CA models (at least on the 2G's) have a tip-over switch that is supposed to keep fuel from exiting the vent hose in a spill, but it's sensitive only to extreme left/right leans, not fore/aft.
It is normal for this motor to have more valve noise than any of the bikes you listed since it has more valves than the air cooled bikes you listed and is based on a racing engine, where a noisey valve train is tolerable.
Is it possible your noise is coming from the chain? A chain going bad will start making noise as it wraps around the front sprocket.
You other issue sounds like a carb issue. If the bike sat for an extended period, the gas could have gone bad and gummed up the tiny passages.
Since you're familiar with wrenching, check simple things first (plugs, air filter) - just because the guy was meticulous, doesn't mean the shop(s) he dealt with were.
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That is good to know about the valves. I was planning on adjusting them soon but they sound just as described by yall. But I do know the most troublesome noise is not valve, chain related. It is present when setting in the drive way in neutral, 1st, 2nd, etc. It does not change pitch with the clutch lever in or out, in gear or out. It is a light ratttle with a certain freq. As the rpm increases so the freq. If the throttle is twisted quickly and let of quickly (reved up and down) the Rattle changes from a rat tat tat to a rattttttattttttattttt. And as the engine deacerates it turns into a rat/buzz like the windscreen (before I put friction tape [USN aircraft tape] at the matting surface). At first I thought it was a bearing under the left cover, or from some area under a cover on the left. The shop mech, thought it might be the alternator. But from the left side there is no way for the alternator to make that noise. The gear drive is on the right. I had to rebuild my 02 F150 complete brake system fore and aft. Last bit of parts are due in today. Then I can start on the B12.
The fuel is not bad. It has had four tanks run through it, he always put Stable in the fuel. Could be sediment, I suppose in the tank. But I think it has something to do with the choke/choke cable. I have a manual, but it does not realy address the choke all that well.
If you ever want a good manual get the Haynes UK model, it is hard cover and in more detail, but you have to know metric and speek Brit. Silencer = muffler for example.
So any other area to look this week end would be great. All gaskets have to be ordered. The only thing they ride in this area is Harleys and four wheelers.
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Well, the alternator does have two bearings and one of them is at the left end of the alternator. Sounds can also travel thru gears and down shafts and end up tricking you where they are actually coming from... and the alternator is driven off the clutch basket which is mated to the mainshaft. I wouldn't necessarily rule out alterator bearings just because of which side of the bike it's on.
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Got my truck back on the road now its Bandit time; sort of. Been two weeks and still waiting on side gaskets. Does anyone know of a mail order and/or internet site where the parts can be ordered. It would have to be quicker than this shop.
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http://www.bikebandit.com/
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Bike Bandit is good - and they give a kickback to the site.
Ron Ayers (http://www.ronayers.com/main.cfm) is just as fast, if not faster, and cheaper - but doesn't give us a kickback.
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Thanks Ron Ayers is dramaticly lower in price. But I have dificulting locating the gasket on both sites. Some are easy to locate some I have not. But will keep trying and they are certainly a help. What ever the problem is I should be able to find the part.
Question: Why does a alternator cost 500 to 700 (two sites). Is it first bought by the US Airforce then resold. Because they are the only ones that I know of that buy parts at 1000% above the production cost. Muffler $400.????
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Alternator gaskets? I haven't disassembled my alternator, but I have had it out of the bike. There's no gasket where the alternator goes into the trans, just an O-ring. I can't imagine any need for a gasket and don't see one on the parts fiche.
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Question: Why does a alternator cost 500 to 700 (two sites). Is it first bought by the US Airforce then resold. Because they are the only ones that I know of that buy parts at 1000% above the production cost. Muffler $400.????
One word. Volume.
Car alternators are usually common thru several makes and models, so they are literally making millions of them. Bike alternators are often not only make unique, but model unique, so their numbers are only in the thousands, and the need for a replacement being infrequent, makes them far rarer, therefore the price is much higher. Internal workings will be fairly common electrical parts, so a specialty shop that reworks alternators can probably fix your m/c alternator WAY cheaper than just buying a replacement (also contributing to the high cost of a replacement).
As for the prices the Air Force pays, while a scattered few exposed by the media ARE outlandish, if you look at parts prices commercial air carriers pay for their parts, the USAF isn't paying any more or any less. A stainless steel crash axe found on any Boeing commercial airliner costs $800 (or did last time I looked, which was 10 years ago). You wouldn't want one either, unless you want to hack thru an airplane skin - they aren't very sharp. Another thing that drives the price of aircraft parts sky-high is the certification process they have to go thru.
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I shutter to think what might have happened if that sucker fell down the cam chain galley.
My mechanic dropped a bolt into an oil galley when he was adjusting the valves. He had to drop the pan to get it out.