Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 650 and 1250 - WATER COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Ed G. on February 05, 2008, 03:52:33 PM
-
Question:
I'm about to change oil, at 4,000 miles,in my Bandit 1250. Changing to synthetic - Mobil 1.
According to SUZUKI, the filter does not need to be changed. If I don't change the filter with the oil there will be dino oil left in the filter. Is that a problem?
thanks
Ed G.
Moderation in all things, including moderation.
Oscar Wilde
-
No, not a problem, but change the filter anyway.
-
Mobil 1, being a PAO synthetic, will blend just fine with Dino oil...
As PaulVS says though, I WOULD change the filter as well, as it's pretty easy, and doesn't cost that much. If you don't change the filter, you can just drain it, and reinstall, gettiing more of the used oil out, but at that point, you might as well change the filter.
-
I recommend you use Mobil one for 4-stroke sport motorcycle engine blend, not automotive blend with EPA friction reducers.
-
Many of the automotive Mobil1 blends don't have friction modifiers. And I have yet to hear of anyone with issues in a motorcycle even with the Mobil 1's that do have friction modifiers.
Don't waste your money on the M/C blend.... the difference in properties between 'Automotive Mobil 1" and "Motorcycle Mobil 1" is so negligible as to be almost zero. While I love the improvement That Mobil 1 has over dino oil in my bike... the motorcycle specific Mobil 1 is just a marketing ploy to get you to pay more money.
Personally, I've tried almost all the Mobil1 oils in my bike, and I like the "automotive" 15w50 the best.
-
Many of the automotive Mobil1 blends don't have friction modifiers. And I have yet to hear of anyone with issues in a motorcycle even with the Mobil 1's that do have friction modifiers.
Don't waste your money on the M/C blend.... the difference in properties is so negligible as to be almost zero.
Personally, I've tried almost all the Mobil1 oils in my bike, and I like the 15w50 the best.
:bigok:
-
The automotive modifiers are only in oils that are lighter than 10W-40 weight. As long as you stick with 10W-40 or heavier, you won't get the modifiers and won't have any problems. You don't need the motorcycle-specific blend. It is a pure waste of money. Unless you live in a really hot climate, use 10W-40 wt. The heavier oils don't lubricate as well because their thickness causes it to flow less freely than the 10W-40 stuff. Hope this helps. Cheers, Jack
-
The automotive modifiers are only in oils that are lighter than 10W-40 weight. As long as you stick with 10W-40 or heavier, you won't get the modifiers and won't have any problems. You don't need the motorcycle-specific blend. It is a pure waste of money. Unless you live in a really hot climate, use 10W-40 wt. The heavier oils don't lubricate as well because their thickness causes it to flow less freely than the 10W-40 stuff. Hope this helps. Cheers, Jack
In the case of Dino... I might agree. But with synthetic is isn't even a minor issue. When I change my oil now (M1 15w50) I don't even get a momentary flicker of the oil light on first start up like I did with Suzuki's 10w40 Dino.
I've used both 10w40 Mobil 1 and 15w50 in Chicago climate and found the 15w50 runs noticeably cooler. Just my $.02.
-
Thanks For all the input guys.
A local bike accessory shop (Cycle Gear) was selling motorcycle specific Mobil 1 at 40% off. Came to about seven bucks a quart, so I bought some.
I know it isn't a big deal to change the filter, but if the manufacturer doesn't think it's worthwhile to change it, why bother?
Ed G.
Moderation in all things, including moderation.
Oscar Wilde
-
Thanks For all the input guys.
A local bike accessory shop (Cycle Gear) was selling motorcycle specific Mobil 1 at 40% off. Came to about seven bucks a quart, so I bought some.
I know it isn't a big deal to change the filter, but if the manufacturer doesn't think it's worthwhile to change it, why bother?
Ed G.
Moderation in all things, including moderation.
Oscar Wilde
$7 a quart is about the going rate for m/c specific Mobil 1. They normally charge around $11 a quart? :shock:
For future reference, the auto blend has about a .05% different ingredient formulation than the m/c specific blends.... not worth the extra $3.60 a quart to me... I get 5 qts. at Wal-Mart for $22.
That savings pays for a new filter... which has much more impact than the slight difference between m/c Mobil 1 and auto Mobil 1.
-
To the original question, mixing dino and synthetic is ok with any brand if you NEED to. It does dilute the synthetic, so it will negate some of the advantage of 100% synthetic.
I can't see saving $6-8 on a filter even if the manual says it's ok. They don't seem to give a reason for that thinking. I'd especially want a new filter on a nearly new engine too, which may have metal filings in the filter.
A shop giving a 40% sale for motorcycle Mobil1 that sells it on sale for $7, first marked it up nearly 60% over retail..lol.
After break in, I went with Shell Rotella Syn, but then learned it isn't a true synthetic. Next time around I put in auto Mobil1 15-50, because it doesn't have the friction modifiers, and also has a higher zinc and phosphorous content that's been lowered for the energy conserving weight oil.
I am nervous about this weight tho, and I do use my bike in cold weather. I may change the weight, or go back to Rotella or maybe even the BIKE specific Mobil1 if I can find it easily.
Mobil's own site says: Additive packages balanced differently for motorcycle engine and transmission operation. For passenger vehicles, fuel economy and emission system protection are higher priorities. These require low phosphorus systems and the use of friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils do not require friction modifiers for fuel economy and for better clutch friction less/no friction modifier is optimum. Motorcycle oils allow the use of higher levels of antiwear additives such as ZDDP (phosphorous).
Reading that, you could easily say, well I'll just use the higher weight Mobil1 WITHOUT friction modifiers.
On the other hand, reading Mobil1's spec page for comparing ZDDP levels for the different weight oils, it shows the BIKE oil has 1600ppm ZDDP, the 15-50 has 1200ppm, and the energy conserving type has 800ppm. Reading this, it would seem there is more than a slight difference between the Bike oil and the 15-50.
Mobil's spec page: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
-
it shows the BIKE oil has 1600ppm ZDDP, the 15-50 has 1200ppm
My math tells me that's a .04% difference between auto and motorcycle Mobil 1 formulations.
I personally have a hard time believing that difference has any 'real-world' benefit.
-
With that logic, then the 1200 to 800 would have no effect either. On the other hand, my math tells me 1600 over 1200 is a 33% INCREASE. 1200 over 800 is a 50% increase.
-
With that logic, then the 1200 to 800 would have no effect either. On the other hand, my math tells me 1600 over 1200 is a 33% INCREASE. 1200 over 800 is a 50% increase.
Right... but it's still parts per million. :grin:
-
Yep
-
Thanks For all the input guys.
A local bike accessory shop (Cycle Gear) was selling motorcycle specific Mobil 1 at 40% off. Came to about seven bucks a quart, so I bought some.
I know it isn't a big deal to change the filter, but if the manufacturer doesn't think it's worthwhile to change it, why bother?
Ed G.
Moderation in all things, including moderation.
Oscar Wilde
$7 a quart is about the going rate for m/c specific Mobil 1. They normally charge around $11 a quart? :shock:
For future reference, the auto blend has about a .05% different ingredient formulation than the m/c specific blends.... not worth the extra $3.60 a quart to me... I get 5 qts. at Wal-Mart for $22.
That savings pays for a new filter... which has much more impact than the slight difference between m/c Mobil 1 and auto Mobil 1.
:beers: :bigok: :bigok: Couldn't agree more! But then again who am I! And what it does for the clunky shift problem alone is well worth the few bucks more.I have run it for 5 K and had it tested. Still as good as dino out of the bottle and shifting was still smooth. Mobil 1 15w50 Diesel Oil Rocks! :motorsmile:
-
Oil filter! As easy as they are to change on a Bandit, and just break in! :annoy: Don't scrimp there!! :duh:
-
Sorry guys, I can't help it - Lubrication Training 103 - Synthetics and Antiwear Agents
To the original question, mixing dino and synthetic is ok with any brand if you NEED to.
Not necessarily true...although generally OK. Without getting overly technical, there are lots of ways to make lubricants "synthetically", but you generally only want to use synthetic hydrocarbons for blending with mineral based hydrocarbons
PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) are the most common synthetic, often co-blended with Diesters (Dibasic Acid Esters) to improve additive solvency. These blend just fine with mineral oils, and this is what you will usually see.
but other products are used to make synthetic oils, usually in NON engine oil applications, including:
Phospahate Esters (common in Fire Resistant Hydraulic Fluids)
Alkyl Benzene (Alkylated Aromatics) - fairly uncommon
Polyol Ester - FR fluids and aviation turbines
Poly Glycols - (common in compressor service)
There have been times when someone has used these other products to formulate engine oils. More common 15-20 years ago, but you do need to be careful.
Again, any PAO (with or without small amount of Diesters) blend with mineral oils just fine. So absolutely no concerns with Mobil 1.
Just some comments on blending, generally.
Avoid 50/50 blends (even with mineral oils) as this is where the most likely tendency for problems exist, expecially with anything that turns and mixes, and is exposed to heat. Since every oil you will ever use is fortified with some type of additive, the chemical balance CAN be upset. The most common problem we see is foaming, since you can make antifoam agents (which are really surface tension modifiers) using either acid or alkyline based technology. Add them together, and you can have a foaming problem.
On the other hand, reading Mobil1's spec page for comparing ZDDP levels for the different weight oils, it shows the BIKE oil has 1600ppm ZDDP, the 15-50 has 1200ppm, and the energy conserving type has 800ppm. Reading this, it would seem there is more than a slight difference between the Bike oil and the 15-50.
My math tells me that's a .04% difference between auto and motorcycle Mobil 1 formulations.
Chemically, this IS a huge change. The real question is how much zinc and phosphorous (ZDDP) is the right amount? ZDDP is an antiwear agent. Think of it like putting a thin carpet on the metal parts. When the asperities (high and low points) on a metal surface make contact, the additive takes the brunt of the impact, reducing the wear on the metal part. Since most metal parts are floating on a film of oil (hydrodynamic lubrication), the amount of impact should be relatively small, unless the loads are very high, and/or the speeds are low.
There is a case to be made that additional antiwear can reduce valve train wear, but I'm not sure that valve train wear is much of a concern in our Bandit engines (at least the 1200 & 600's). Beyond that, the extra ZDDP should assist in reducing tranny wear, but again, the jury's out as to how much of a good thing is necessary.
Engines that should benefit from extra antiwear include big air-cooled singles & twins (especially pushrod Harley's), or other high torque/low rpm applications, and these engines generally NEED higher viscosities as well. (ie 15W-50 or 20W-50)
Anyway, back to the debate. For those who want to read some more opinions, check out these threads:
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=3835.0
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=4607.msg34061#msg34061
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=8263.msg62450#msg62450
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=8913.0
-
My math tells me that's a .04% difference between auto and motorcycle Mobil 1 formulations.
Chemically, this IS a huge change.
Still gonna disagree here. We're talking 1200 parts per million versus 1600 parts per million. 400 parts per million difference? I bet you could add 400 ppm of acid to motor oil and not notice any difference.
Again, we're talking real-world application here... not just theoretical values. And paying double for a extremely minute amount of this-or-that additive in motorcycle specific oil is a complete waste of money in my personal opinion.
Hell... I've used dino-based "motorcycle specific" oils that are alleged to have all the 'proper' amounts of additives that made my bikes run like sh*t.
Also, as I understand it.... too much zinc is not a good addition to oil for motors that have a catalytic converter... which the B1250 has, correct?
(I heard that from an 'expert' who may or may not know exactly what he's talking about.)
-
Another thing to think about! those additives in the bottle, zinc and phosphorous (ZDDP) anti wear agent, get filtered out darn fast. So run a filter that does a good job or run one for too long and your extra $$ are just plugging up that extra good filter. :roll:
-
Bandit are known to have premature cam lobe wear and pitting.
Paul, the best aftermarket high performance engine builders and camshaft makers for cars, all of a sudden were getting warrantee claims for failures they never saw before. Their investigation led them to believe the new energy conserving oil, with less zinc and phosphates were to blame. They now advise customers what oils to use, what ones to stay away from.
The tiny amount of additives form a protective layer. It's not like you can dump lbs of metal into an engine and expect good results. Little tiny amounts do the trick. Too small an amount might do next to nothing.
I have a hard time believing the additives are big enough to get trapped in oil filters tho.
-
So you really believe that those 800 or 1200 or 1400 parts per million of ZDDP form a coalition to lay down a protective barrier on your cam lobes? :lol:
-
Hell, I'm no engineer, but I listen to what they report.
-
Hell, I'm no engineer, but I listen to what they report.
What they report... or what the marketing department reports?
-
:popcorn2: Ahhh! Oil threads
One sure way to stir things up! :gloom: :storm:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
-
:popcorn2: Ahhh! Oil threads
One sure way to stir things up! :gloom: :storm:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
It's funny, when this one started, I thought the question was answered and it would peter out (unlike every other oil thread)... I should have known better. It's almost time to throw in a question about blinker fluid to really stir things up.... :evil1: :bolt:
-
How about segueing into "Which is the best tire"? :wink:
-
:deadhorse: Well most start @ a 10 micron, and if its a cheapy with not much media will get plugged to a hole half that size! 5 micron is darn small! Change the oil what ever GOO it is and ride! :bigok:
-
The best high pro pure non-petroleum synthetic motorcycle oil you can buy is made by a company that specializes in the development of race lubricants. Like Klotz which provides the best quality SF/SG (supposed to use) oil in a rage of wights from 10W-30, 10W-40, 15W-50, 20W-50. They also provide Technical data sheets on their oil performance, not back label euphemism http://www.klotzlube.com/tech/KL-830.pdf (http://www.klotzlube.com/tech/KL-830.pdf). And since its directly from the product maker they are reasonably priced, I manage to find it for $8 a quart or cheaper by 30/50 gal drum.
Oh and yes as per the Tech sheet will blend with all so called synth and petroleum oils. I have found it to outperforms the "over the counter shelf brand gallon container synth oil" so well that it virtually comes out looking the way it went inside. Whereas my experiences with the other has been that it go's in looking good and comes out black with the viscosity of water IMHO. :yes:
-
Let's not forget that every time we change oil we are mixing the new oil with old (used). The ratio on the B12 is about 3 to 1 so, unless you are taking the engine apart to drain every single drop of old oil, you are changing only about 2/3 to 3/4 of oil.
Ergo, you are mixing dino and synth every time you switch between them.
-
Mixing dino and syth is fine.
What do you think is in "Semi-Synth" oil??
In fact if you are using a "Semi" synth to save money over a FULL Synth try this.
With "Semi Synth" you never really know how MUCH synth is in there...is it 50% Synth, is it 10% Synth?? Is it 25% Synth??
So buy a jug of dino oil and a jug of FULL Synthetic (in the long run it doesn't cost you any more) and mix them 50/50 that way you know it's a TRUE "Semi-Synth".