Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 650 and 1250 - WATER COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: PhilS on June 17, 2007, 09:31:20 AM
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Hi Guys:
I am new to this group and just bought a 2007 1250S non-ABS. I am getting this "ticking" sound randomly, like once every 10 to 20 seconds while between 2500 and 4500. I am in the break in period and have not run it up high yet, so I may hear it there too. I can also reproduce it on command by free revving it in neutral and it clicks at 4000 or so when bursting the throttle. It sounds like it is coming from the front top of the engine but I honestly can not find the source. Coils, valves, cams, etc, ???
Dealer says run better gas as he suspects a ping. I have been running cheap 87 but now on Shell 93 but only for two miles. The bike has 350 miles on it so far.
Any thoughts?
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:welcome:
I'd run at least one full tank of high test and see if it goes away. Or change brands. I run high test in mine all the time, but I may start going cheap every other tank once I get over 3000 miles.
Whtever it is, the dealer should take care of it. If it's pinging, it could be crappy gas or it could be timing, maybe a fault in the ECU, a sensor or a solenoid. I'd at least make the dealer run a diagnostic on it.
We are all in the same boat with the new B1250, I don't think any of us have much over a couple thousand miles yet. There's been a couple little quirky bugs, but nothing major yet. Keep us informed on this "ticking" thang, OK? :wink:
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I'm surprised at you, Zen!! Master ASE mechanic, veteran racer and all that! :yikes:
Without re-opening the octane can of worms, let me just suggest the use a quality 87 octane fuel* (without alcohol, if you can) before moving up a grade or two - and only move up one grade at a time.
* This assumes the 1250 owners manual recommends 87 octane.
87 octane as measured in the US method of (RON+MON)/2.
Remember, the higher the octane, the harder it is to ignite the fuel. You want to run the LOWEST octane you can without detonation.
The gas companies won't tell you that though... hmmm... I wonder why? :wink:
:btw: Octane thread in the General FAQ (http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=2615&highlight=octane)
And if you search the site for "octane" you'll two pages worth of threads on the subject.
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I'm surprised at you, Zen!! Master ASE mechanic, veteran racer and all that! :yikes:
Jeez, getting touchy, are we? :stickpoke:
Don't worry, Red, I'm not here to unseat you from your throne, Oh King of All Knowledge And Master Of Everything Technical In The Universe. :lol:
Considering the info given, and not being there to do a "personal diagnosis", I basically just said to take it to the dealer for a plug-in diagnosis. Got a problem with that? :roll:
You want to run the LOWEST octane you can without detonation.
And if this "ticking" happens to be detonation? :shock:
The B1250 has 10.5:1 compression, in case you didn't know... but that couldn't be possible, Oh Great Knower Of All!!! :stickpoke: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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1. Sorry for sounding like I'm touchy. I'm not. I just expected you to know this kind of rookie stuff.
2. I'm assuming the 1250 still runs on 87. If not, excuse me. I don't have one sitting here, or their owners manual to refer to. 10.5:1 compression running on regular is not at all uncommon.
3. I'm just saying running premium in an engine that doesn't need it is not only a waste of money, but hurts performance, not help it. You're not doing anyone or anything any favors by "treating" your machine to "the good stuff."
You want to run the LOWEST octane you can without detonation.
And if this "ticking" happens to be detonation?
I thought that statement was clear... if you have detonation with 87, try 89... because 87 is too low. If it still exists, then premium would be called for. If you still have detonation in a stock 1250 after that, see your dealer. You have a problem that your warranty can take care of.
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I thought that statement was clear... if you have detonation with 87, try 89... because 87 is too low. If it still exists, then premium would be called for. If you still have detonation in a stock 1250 after that, see your dealer. You have a problem that your warranty can take care of.
Isn't that pretty much what I said in the first place? :roll:
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Actually, outside of the ticking/clicking from time to time, the bike runs incredibly well. I am starting to go beyond the prescribed break in mentality and ride it like I'm gonna ride forever. I've come from a background of a Goldwing, GS700E, and a older 400 Honda Hawk twin. "Ey Carumba" this new bike is a rocket!!!---and I'm not even sure that's how you spell Ey Carumba!!! :bandit:
Even so, with the 93 Shell in there and 50+ miles under way since, it still has that random tick/click - especially when it is under very little load in the 2500 to 4000 range around 30 to 45 mph. :motorsmile:
I am set to have the 600 mile service in two weeks and have requested a full engine diagnostic (whatever that is) and the shop's super-tech to weed out any major issues.
More details in the saga..........
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Yep, she's a runner alright! :bigok: Every new owner says the same things... "Rocket!" "Smooth!" "Power!" "Torque!" and now you've added another one, "Ay Carumba!"
Well, your "ticking doesn't sound like detonation, if it was it would do it under load. Actually it sounds like an intermittent oil delivery glitch in the top end, Is your oil level full?
Make the dealer figure it out. I'm not gonna try to help anybody anymore since I'm a "rookie", and I get jumped on if I don't say every little word exactly the way Lord Red would say it. I'll just let him come up with all the answers, that way every thread like yours asking for advice doesn't turn into a nit-picking pissing contest. :roll:
Keep us posted on the bike, and feel free to post in the other forums anytime. Good luck with the dealer :wink: :motorsmile:
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I thought that statement was clear... if you have detonation with 87, try 89... because 87 is too low. If it still exists, then premium would be called for. If you still have detonation in a stock 1250 after that, see your dealer. You have a problem that your warranty can take care of.
Isn't that pretty much what I said in the first place? :roll:
No, it's not. :tongue: :wink:
I'd run at least one full tank of high test and see if it goes away. Or change brands. I run high test in mine all the time, but I may start going cheap every other tank once I get over 3000 miles.
Going to the highest grade right off the bat is not the same as what I said. (I said upgrade one level at a time.) The first suggestion is reinforced by your use of premium "all the time."
The "change brands" came second - and that part agrees with some of what I said, sort of. :bandit:
:btw: What does the 1250's owners manual recommend for octane?
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Why do you keep turning these threads into pissing contests? Poor guy just wants some advice on his bike and you have to fight with me about details?
Going to the highest grade right off the bat is not the same as what I said.
Yeah, so what? Just because my approach is a little different than yours, or not exactly "what YOU said", that makes it somehow wrong? :roll:
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and your word isn't one of the Ten Commandments, is it? :annoy:
(I said upgrade one level at a time.) The first suggestion is reinforced by your use of premium "all the time."
The "change brands" came second - and that part agrees with some of what I said, sort of. :bandit:
What the hell's the difference if he goes up "one level at a time" or just runs high test? It's only for one tank, and just to find out if it's detonation or not, by seeing if the "ticking" goes away.
Funny thing, turns out it's probably not detonation after all. If he had done it your way, he would have ran TWO tanks of higher octane to find out the same thing.
And what's it to ya what kind of gas I put in my bike? I like to run premium for the first 3000 miles when I break in a new bike. I have my reasons, and it's nunya business.
Who are you, the freakin' Gas Police? :shock: :stickpoke:
Sorry, I'm just tired of your nit-picking. I feel like every time I try to help another member with their problem, you are lurking over my shoulder, waiting to pounce on the slightest deviation from what YOU would say. You do it to other people too, and it's not conducive to the sharing of information on this board. You really need to loosen up and stop micro-managing every little word.
Too many of these threads are ending up like this one... not a very good impression on PhilS and other new members, is it?
It's getting to where it's just not worth the hassle.
:gatlin :yesno: :deadhorse:
Have a nice day! :monkeymoon: :banana: :banana2: :penguin:
PS you wanna know what the owner's manual says? Go buy your own B1250 and find out! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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:wtf: :headscratch: YOU asked if what you said was the same as what I said and all I did was reply. :annoy:
Go ask fuel pros, seach the Net, or the dozens of octane threads that have been around since before you were here - or not. Then run whatever freakin' grade of fuel you want.
I don't really care.
:duh: :taz:
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As for PhilS' problem, diagnosing a noise we can't hear is tough. Since it appears to not be detonation, I would take it to a shop or trusted someone who is a good mechanic and have them give it a listen.
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Your very first post in this thread started out with this little jab:
I'm surprised at you, Zen!! Master ASE mechanic, veteran racer and all that! :yikes:
Then you proceeded to tell me how wrong I was by suggesting that PhilS run a tank of high test to see if that stopped the "ticking".
Sorry, you just can't see the forest for the trees. You're stuck on octane when I'm talking about how your constant arguing over every little detail keeps ruining these threads. I'm just not getting through.
But of course it's ALL MY FAULT. Red01 CAN DO NO WRONG. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Excuse me, I think I'm gonna down and fill up my bike with CAM2 now, just for the freakin' helluvit! :bigok:
:evil1: :burnout:
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As for PhilS' problem, diagnosing a noise we can't hear is tough. Since it appears to not be detonation, I would take it to a shop or trusted someone who is a good mechanic and have them give it a listen.
AGREED!
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Excuse me, I think I'm gonna down and fill up my bike with CAM2 now, just for the freakin' helluvit! :bigok:
:evil1: :burnout:
Don't forget to pick up some DOT 5. :toocool: :bikeflip:
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:shrug:
Guys:
I am new to this and did not mean to start an earthquake or insite a riot amongst y'all, but it would appear something like that is happening. Sorry for that....
The sound I'm getting is like what you hear when the throttle is relaxed all the back and it ticks as it hits it's stop. You can hear that sound it when the engine is off.
Now, imagine that tick randomly happening in low-mid rpms while cruising along. The Suzuki guys will deal with it when it goes in on 7/2......or I'll get really bent and demand the world or something.
As for the hard bags, good point on the painted versions. The guys at the shop said the same thing concerning the scuffing and such. I will now be going with the less expensive matte black versions in all three positions and saving about $49 million in the process.
Onward..... :motorsmile:
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When you explain it like that.. mine does that too. It's only if I'm rolling on or off though... I think. It almost sounds like an electrical thing... I thought it was some kind of solenoid or relay "clicking" on and off for whatever reason.. I'll have to see if I can't narrow down where I think it's coming from.
Keep us posted.
trey
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Don't forget to pick up some DOT 5.
Yep! CAM 2 and DOT 5 and maybe some of those tassels for my handlebar ends! :lol:
Then I'm comin' up there and burn your tail all over the Cascades till you cry UNCLE!
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sehrgrosse/large-smiley-041.gif)
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:shrug:
Guys:
I am new to this and did not mean to start an earthquake or insite a riot amongst y'all, but it would appear something like that is happening. Sorry for that....
No,no, PhilS... It's nothing you did! I can't speak for Red but it is I who apologise to you for having to put up with this crap in your thread here. Someone just needs to loosen up a little, that's all. :roll:
The sound I'm getting is like what you hear when the throttle is relaxed all the back and it ticks as it hits it's stop. You can hear that sound it when the engine is off.
Aaaaaaahhhhh...... now I get it. It does it with the engine off, and just randomly, like one "tick" at a time? NOT "tick-tick-tick" like a valve ticking then?
That should be easy to find. Does it do it with the key on but engine off? Or with the key off too?
The B1250 has secondary throttle plates... what you are hearing could be the solenoid that actuates them. That would be with the key on only, I would think.
If it does it with the key off, then it's most likely mechanical... just the linkage or the primary throttle plates, maybe.
You must have really good ears if you can hear that going down the road... all I can hear on mine is the wind! :bandit:
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Hey PhilS
Based on what your saying, it may be a solenoid, so likely not a concern, once you find out what it is.
Any chance it is a loose cam chain noise? This would sound like a short clatter or metallic slap, and would mostly be noticable at idle. It is unlikely, but you could have a bad cam chain tensioner from the factory. Not likely, but get the dealer to confirm what you are hearing.
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Nope - I was describing a similar sound you hear with the engine off. The noise is definately between 2500 and 4500 no load and random tick. It almost does sound like a loose cam chain kicking about randomly under no load.
I understand last year's engine was different? If so, that would explain the dealership's blank stare, no knowledge of where the coolant filler was (under the seat), and how to adjust the seat. OY!!! I found the seat adjustment on my own on one of these bulletin boards.....higher is better.....for me that is. Great write up on the seat adjustment.
I will go back to the original dealer for the 600 mile as "poor setup issues" are not warranty and other shops will not deal with it for free. We'll see after 7/2.
BTW - I understand these threads and the poking back and forth is mostly in fun - it's all good.
Later,
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I don't want to steal the OP's post.. but mine sounds just like a single "click" when rolling on or off. The secondary throttle plates actuation sounds perfectly logical... especially since it seems to make the noise when I'm rolling on or off the throttle. I'll have to see where my noise is coming from...
trey
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Yep, it's an all-new engine, first year out. We're all noobs when it comes to this motor.
Now that I understand a little better, I would venture a guess as to it being a solenoid.
The fuel injection system on this motor utilizes secondary throttle plates. They are like choke plates that are actuated by the ECU to control air flow into the throttle bodies. From what I understand, they work mostly in the mid-range, which would be between the 2500 to 4500 rpm you mentioned. They're supposed to eliminate "lean surge" at cruise, which is a problem in many EFI systems.
Now before anybody jumps me, I could be wrong about this, I haven't seen a shop manual for this bike. But my DL650 V-Strom had basically the same system, and I could hear the secondary solenoids clicking as you describe. The plates would change position as the throttle position changes. That's my guess, anyway.
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I stopped visiting here because I got tired of all the one-upmanship and bickering going on, not to mention the F word stuff. Last time, these two were ganging up on CWO4 and now, on a return visit, I see that they're beating on each other. Why do we have to pick through all this nonsense to get decent information? I had some info to share on my finally broken in 1250S, but the Hell with it. Now, as usual, Zen will have to get the last word in. He probably yaks on his cell phone in supermarkets, too. Goodbye all.
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I stopped visiting here because I got tired of all the one-upmanship and bickering going on, not to mention the F word stuff. Last time, these two were ganging up on CWO4 and now, on a return visit, I see that they're beating on each other. Why do we have to pick through all this nonsense to get decent information? I had some info to share on my finally broken in 1250S, but the Hell with it. Now, as usual, Zen will have to get the last word in. He probably yaks on his cell phone in supermarkets, too. Goodbye all.
Ah, Frisky, back to spew more sour grapes?
:cheese:
So are you and CWO having a good time PM'ing each other to talk about us behind our backs over on the "other" board? :lol:
I remember when you got all bent out of shape because the "F" word was used ONCE in a poster, in response to CWO's bad behavior. You got all huffy and offended and complained you couldn't have your grandaughter view the site.
When you joined, you must have ignored the board "Rules and Guidelines" where it specifically states:
"This board is targeted toward ADULTS, and may have ADULT CONTENT!
As such, we require you to be OVER 18 to participate. You are also responsible for adherence to whatever local laws or regulations pertain the the internet.
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=1451
That was the ONLY time I've EVER seen the "F" word posted here, and after you complained, Red01 even apologized and removed the poster. But that wasn't enough for you. You made your snap judgement after being here a week with only 30 posts, declared the board unfit, and went away in a hissy fit.
Now here you are back, apparently just to complain some more. :roll:
You know, I don't remember ever being anything but friendly, cordial, respectful and helpful towards you. I gave you a warm welcome and thanked you when you posted the info on your windshield. I even PM'ed you once and offered to help you post pics, since you seemed like you were having trouble with it. I didn't do it publicly, to avoid embarrassing you. But you never responded.
Now you have this bad attitude towards me because of what went on with CWO? That had nothing to do with you. If you're going to condemn me for problems I have with someone else entirely, I guess your friendship and respect isn't worth much.
Adios, Frisky... hope you and CWO find your perfect world, where there's no "bad" words, and nobody "yaks on their cell phone in supermarkets". :bandit:
P.S. I don't even own a cell phone. :lol:
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Then I'm comin' up there and burn your tail all over the Cascades till you cry UNCLE!
Come on up! :bigok: You can pitch a tent in my yard and I'll clear a spot in the garage for your bike to spend the night. :motorsmile:
And I suppose I did jump the gun a little in my original response. Of course, there'd be nothing wrong with jumping from regular to premium if you got some detonation ping and then later tried midgrade if premium got rid of it - or stick with premium. I just hate to see people spending the money for more expensive higher octane fuel if they don't need to. Just part of the Scottish side of my family tree, I guess. :wink:
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Then I'm comin' up there and burn your tail all over the Cascades till you cry UNCLE!
Come on up! :bigok: You can pitch a tent in my yard and I'll clear a spot in the garage for your bike to spend the night. :motorsmile:
Be careful what you offer!
I'd be happy to camp out in your back yard, burn steaks on your BBQ, park in your garage, use your tools, drink your beer, and raid your fridge at 2:00 AM... sounds like fun! :lol:
And I suppose I did jump the gun a little in my original response. Of course, there'd be nothing wrong with jumping from regular to premium if you got some detonation ping and then later tried midgrade if premium got rid of it - or stick with premium. I just hate to see people spending the money for more expensive higher octane fuel if they don't need to.
Understood. No worries, mate. :bigok:
Just part of the Scottish side of my family tree, I guess. :wink:
Well that explains a lot! I'm Scottish too... this is just the normal way that two Scots get along, aye? :bandit:
When I come visit, you and me will have to find a rowdy bar and have some fun getting arrested! We'll compare scars in the drunk tank afterwards... :singing:
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The fuel injection system on this motor utilizes secondary throttle plates. They are like choke plates that are actuated by the ECU to control air flow into the throttle bodies. From what I understand, they work mostly in the mid-range, which would be between the 2500 to 4500 rpm you mentioned. They're supposed to eliminate "lean surge" at cruise, which is a problem in many EFI systems.
Now before anybody jumps me, I could be wrong about this, I haven't seen a shop manual for this bike. But my DL650 V-Strom had basically the same system, and I could hear the secondary solenoids clicking as you describe. The plates would change position as the throttle position changes. That's my guess, anyway.
You are correct, the noise you guys are hearing are the secondary butterfly valves closing.
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PS you wanna know what the owner's manual says? Go buy your own B1250 and find out! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: I knew if I was patient enough, I'd find the answer to this without buying a B12.5. :tongue:
I just read Motorcycle Consumer News' article on the new 1250 yesterday and they mention in there that Suzuki calls for 87 octane (R+M/2) and that's what they ran in it with no ill effects. :bandit:
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PS you wanna know what the owner's manual says? Go buy your own B1250 and find out! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: I knew if I was patient enough, I'd find the answer to this without buying a B12.5. :tongue:
I just read Motorcycle Consumer News' article on the new 1250 yesterday and they mention in there that Suzuki calls for 87 octane (R+M/2) and that's what they ran in it with no ill effects. :bandit:
Actually, it says a minimum of 87 octane.
In the interest of absolute, pinpoint accuracy, y'know... :lol:
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I was gonna leave this alone, but since you insist... :roll:
I mentioned before that I have my own reasons for running premium gas in my new B1250... reasons that are not mentioned in all your posts both here and in the pages of posts in the FAQ's... and that is detergent additives.
We have two stations in town... Citgo and Shell. Shell happens to use some very good detergent additive packages in their premium gas. This is particular important when you have fuel injection like I do. The octane is not as important to me as keeping my injectors clean, and the valves and combustion chamber free of deposits.
This is also important with any brand-new engine that you are just breaking in. For the first 3000 miles, I prefer to use gas that has good detergents exclusively. After that, I'll be alternating between premium and regular to save a couple bucks, but I'll always use Shell premium every other tank to keep my injectors clean and valves deposit-free.
You might find this article interesting:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/us10325.htm
You can argue if you like, but you won't change my choice of what gas I put in my bike. All the talk about octane is fine, and should be put out there for everyone to make well-informed choices. But there's more to it than just octane, so to be truly well-informed I suggest doing some research on detergents and other additives that are used in premium gas.
Ultimately it comes down to personal choice, and one's own economical priorities. I choose to pay a little more for gas that has good detergent additives. I have a low-mileage, fuel-injected motorcycle. If you have carbs and your bike happens to have a good number of miles on her, then choosing to save a few bucks by using regular makes sense to me. That's totally up to you... more power to ya! :bigok:
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Not trying to refire the arguement... just thought it was odd you wouldn't tell me what the OM said. :lol:
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Not trying to refire the arguement... just thought it was odd you wouldn't tell me what the OM said. :lol:
Just to make you work for it. :lol:
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Even a couple of "gas" guys have this same debate. Cargo7 (my Shell friend) uses Premium exclusively, and I use whatever is convenient, usually regular.
Premium fuel from major companies DOES typically have additional detergent adpak...Ron tells me Shell V-Power has approx double the treat rate of Shell Bronze (regular). Esso also increases the treat rate, and actual lab engine tests confirm that the additional detergent CAN help keep the intake side of the engine cleaner. Premium can also have higher fuel density (in the range of 2%) which might assist fuel economy.
On the flip side, lower turnover in station fuel tanks tends to result in some loss of vapor pressure (really only an issue in the winter) over time, and may have a higher risk of picking up some water. The cost is obviously higher, and on the mileage that most bikes accumulate, the intake side tends to stay squeeky clean on regular.
My take, unless you need the extra octane for something (higher compression, pinging problems, high loads at sea level, extreme temperatures, etc) your just spending some extra money for premium, but the bike WILL be fine.
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You might find this article interesting:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/us10325.htm
You're right, it is interesting. :bigok:
Especially this part:
Most vehicles do not need premium. A few do specify premium fuel in the owners manual, but these are mostly high-performance turbocharged or supercharged engines. The average vehicle should not need the extra octane unless it has a problem or a lot of miles and a heavy buildup of deposits in the combustion chambers. Then it might be worth the extra 20 to 30 cents more per gallon for premium.
As our resident POL pro, pmackie, points out, regular still has those detergent additives, just not normally in as high a percentage.
Regular seems to be doing a good enough job keeping the injectors clean in my 18 year old, 150K mile, Jeep truck and my 13 year old, 230K mile. Geo Tracker, both of which are injected. Worked just fine in other FI cars I've owned and racked up the miles in as well. I do run premium in my supercharged car though... but then the OM recommends (but does not insist) it. (It's ECU will compensate for lower octane should you run it, but so far finding premium has never been a problem.)
I'm not trying to change your mind. Just putting facts out. Anyone that knows the facts and still wants to run whatever they run is fine with me. It has no effect on MY wallet. I just want folks to know what they're doing. A lot of people DON'T know. The oil companies aren't gonna come out and tell them not to spend the extra coin on super because they don't need it.
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Well, you can cherry-pick the parts that support your bias all ya want, but the FACT is premium gas DOES have mo' betta detergent adds. :stickpoke: :lol:
:banana2:
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Whatever. I said my piece and like I said, I'm not trying to change your mind.
:btw: Will my clothes get cleaner if I use twice as much soap? :lol:
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Will my clothes get cleaner if I use twice as much soap? :lol:
If you were only using a spoonful in the first place, hell yeah they'll get cleaner with twice as much. :lol:
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I feel like I'm watching a chess match, only it's not as exciting. :stickpoke:
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My biggest beef is seemingly contradictory explanations from the dealer, and what's in the manual.
The dealer told me I needed 91 octane in my Bandit, which strictly speaking is *not* what it says in the manual.
from page 3-2
FUEL
Use unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher (Research method). Unleaded gasoline can extend spark plug life and exhaust components' life.
If pinging or knocking is experienced, substitute higher octane grade gasoline or another brande, because there are differences between brands.
(For Canada)
Your motorcycle requires regular unleaded gasoline with a minimum pump octane rating of 87 ((R+M)/2 method). In some areas, the only fuels that are available are oxygenated fuels.
Sounds like you should be filling up with premium stuff, right? Especially when you consider the 10.5: 1 engine compression. But that's not actually the case.
Gas in Canada and the U.S. is typically sold by the Road Octane Number, which is about 5 points lower than the Research Octane Number specified in that first paragraph. (road octane is the average of Research octane and Motor octane... and motor octane is always much lower... it's performance under load)
In other words:
87 Octane in North America = 91/92 Octane in Europe. So fill up with regular.
I've got nothing to say about detergents except look at the oil company websites yourself.
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I feel like I'm watching a chess match, only it's not as exciting. :stickpoke:
LMAO! Yeah, those two guys never stop.
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I put 93 in for my first tank...then I read the manual- ran 87 ever since...I can't tell the difference- runs fine for me. i am fine with it.
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I feel like I'm watching a chess match, only it's not as exciting. :stickpoke:
LMAO! Yeah, those two guys never stop.
Hey, just so you know... I really like ol' Red, he's a good guy and knows way more about Bandits than I ever will. That doesn't mean he's always right about everything, though. :stickpoke:
We just both happen to be stubborn, opinionated old farts, that's all. (I bet he disagrees with me about that, too!) :lol:
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I'd wager a dollar on that.
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I'd wager a dollar on that.
You loose... I agree we're both stubborn opinionated old farts. :lol:
I'm just the younger, better looking one of the two. :bandit: