Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 650 and 1250 - WATER COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Bob Holland on January 28, 2007, 06:08:37 PM
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When my sons were young we rode dirt bikes, we spent many a weekend at California Cty, Red Rock Canyon, Gorman or Balenger Canyon. The bikes were air cooled 125s and 250s. Two or three times a year I would be replacing the ring and piston on one of the bikes. I bought my oldest son a new 1981 YZ 125 when he was 12, he rode it until he was 18, 6 years and we never had to take the engine apart.
Our 1200 Bandits are air cooled, with an oil cooler to help keep the oil temp down. Every one, even Harley( V-Rod) is going to water cooled engines, thats just the way it is :motorsmile:
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It's obviously the best way to go. I'm surprised bikes lag so far behind cars in certain types of technologies. For example, why in the world is a carbureted bike still manufactured for street use in 2007? :duh: And except for BMW, bikes were years getting into ABS and still aren't all using it. And there're other things too. I know they want to keep costs down, but I'd rather bite the bullet and go high tech.
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Seems emission reduction is one of the driving forces behind the liquid cooling trend .
The Suzuki Advanced Cooling System was fairly efficient . Hard on the engine oil for sure .
Still today , most if not all road race organizations will not allow the Bandit 1200 to race in the aircooled classes of same cylinder and displacement as they consider it " liquid cooled ". WERA and the CMRA as just two examples .
Times are a changing :motorsmile:
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I agree with all of the above.
The benefits of water-cooling:
1. Longer engine life
2. Cooler operating temperatures
3. More efficient fuel conversion (see #2)
4. Better power (see #3)
Benefits of fuel injection:
1. Precise fuel delivery
2. Exact fuel/air ratio
3. Less moving parts
4. Better fuel mileage
5. Ease of adjustment
6. Higher power (see #1 and #2)
I mean, like DA said, why so long? It's a no-brainer! :duh:
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To Zen's benefits of water cooling, 1-4 are due to water cooling keeping a more stable operating temperature.Suzuki came up with the air/oil cooled motors to attempt to achieve these same goals, but without as much of a weight penalty as going to water-cooled. The idea was since the engine has to carry oil anyway, add a little more oil, a dual stage oil pump (it pumps high volume, low pressure for cooling duties and low volume, high pressure for rotating parts' bearings), and a bigger oil cooler (racing air-cooled inline 4's were already using coolers anyway) and a few jets to cool things down. This way their bikes would be lighter than the water-cooled competition. This worked for a long time, but eventually, performance parameters needed to stay competitive in racing (and therefore sales) forced a move to water. Now, emissions is forcing it.
As to the benefits of injection, let me be the devil's advocate (I actually like EFI, but it's not all roses) and give some negatives.
To counter #3, there's more electronics. Black boxes, sensors, wires. These aren't always trouble-free and when there's trouble, can be a real headscratcher sometimes - unless you're rich enough to afford shotgun troubleshooting (where you replace anything that might be a problem).
For #4, I don't think there's any difference in fuel economy if the only difference is carbs or a same size & mapped EFI. I've heard reports of it actually going the other way with Harleys.
#5 is debatable, if you're not savy in downloading modified programs and uploading them to your device, but you've been tweaking carbs for decades, carbs may not be as challenging as EFI. OTOH, if you've never tore into a carb and you are well versed in computer technolgy, the reverse is true.
Many carbs can be adjusted with no parts changing, especially for minor changes. If you do jetting yourself (ie, don't buy kits from Ivan, Dale, Dynojet, etc), the cost will be less than tweaking EFI. (I know, cost wasn't mentioned.) EFI will be a matter of swapping a chip (like in old Kawi systems) or simply plugging in a piggyback device like a Power Commander, so that is easier than tearing into carbs to rejet.
To counter #6, that's false. If the carbs are jetted correctly, there's no difference. The caveat is you need to rejet for varying conditions whereas EFI will adjust automatically due to the electronics. An engine is just an air pump. EFI alone will not change how much goes in and how much comes out.
Why so long? That's a good question. It's good to see they're finally doing it though. I do hate to see the finned engines go in naked bikes though. To me, they just look better when they're out there on display with fins. Most water cooled motors look too appliance-like, though there are exceptions where the manufacturer has put fins on their water cooled lumps for stying's sake.
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Red, all good counterpoints, and all debatable or depending on your experience. You make a very acceptable "Devil's Advocate". :lol:
As for #6, you are correct. How 'bout if I change that one to:
6. Smoother power.
The instantaneous throttle response, lack of "lag", and even power delivery is a huge difference over carburetion.
OK? :bigok: :grin:
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The instantaneous throttle response, lack of "lag", and even power delivery is a huge difference over carburetion.
OK? :bigok: :grin:
And to advocate just a bit more...instantaneous throttle response is not always a good thing...many a rider has had a hard time adjusting to an FI equipped bike, especially the ham fisted riders :wink:
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The instantaneous throttle response, lack of "lag", and even power delivery is a huge difference over carburetion.
OK? :bigok: :grin:
And to advocate just a bit more...instantaneous throttle response is not always a good thing...many a rider has had a hard time adjusting to an FI equipped bike, especially the ham fisted riders :wink:
True enough. :wink:
Another benefit I forgot to mention... no choke!
Push the start button and instant, smooth idle... ready to ride. :bigok:
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What are yawl sayin :duh: U can't beat a Zuki sacs torque monster! :bigok:
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Yup. That's what the old die-hards used to say about kick-start, manual spark advance, and rigid frames too. :motorsmile:
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While a 20+ year old bike may not be priceless, I'm sure it'll be worth keeping. (I've got a 33 year old bike I still ride.)
I guess I'm an old die-hard - at least on the kick starter.
Personally, I still miss having the kick starter there as a back-up, like on my ol' GS750.
And my dirt bike starts just fine with no battery. :bigok:
OTOH, in these days of EFI and the rest of the electronics, if the battery is low, it wouldn't start anyway, so having a kicker as a backup is moot.
I recall my ol' RD350 could be "kick" started literally by hand with a quick snap. Used to be a fun way to poke fun at HD or Brit bike riders who had to take care not to get launched over the bars if their big twins ever kicked back.
I'm not old enough to recall if the loss of manual spark advance or the addition of shock absorbers ever caused a fuss though... and I'm happy to have those features!
(Kinda doubt it though.)
As the old Yamaha ad (and Sly & the Family Stone song/album) used to say:
Different strokes for different folks.
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Yup. I miss my old RD350 track bike. And my old Honda 305 Dream. And my old Norton Commando. And my old Z1 900. They all had kick-starts and carbs, and air-cooled engines.... oops! I forgot, this is the "Water-cooled Technical" forum. Sorry!
Maybe we could have a "Vintage Nostalgia" forum to reminisce about all that great old technology in? :bigok:
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Difference between air/oil cooled vs Water/liquid cooled????
The biggest differences for me, and why I like the old air/oil cooled engines are,
Cost of maintenance - less things to replace
Reliability - less things to go wrong
Character - sorry but the older air/oil cooled bikes tend to have a soul, and look like they have soul. A water/liquid cooled engine has no soul and they all look the same.
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As for fuel injection - I really do prefer carburators, why.
Well, besides the fact that if something goes wrong with EFI it's BIG dollars. I've found all the fuel injected nakeds I test rode before buying the B12 wouldn't 'behave' at low speed/low revs/low throttle openings. In other words, they worked really well on the open road and when 'playing', but for me a bike has to be able to do the low speed/low rev/low throttle open drudgery of riding round town, just as well as it does the open road stuff.
It'll be a sad sad day when you can't buy a big bore air/oil cooled carby bike.....
And, as for comparing bikes to cars - WTF. They did a comparison here in Oz between the fastest most expensive Porche and the Suzuki GSXR1000 around a couple of race tracks. Who won, the Suzuki - even though it's not as technically advanced as the porche - infact for the price of one Porche brake rotor you can buy the Suzuki.
You say you want technical advancement, but I'm not so sure you'd be so keen when you can't buy fair dinkum, honest, big bore, do anything bike for less the 20 grand....
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Difference between air/oil cooled vs Water/liquid cooled????
The biggest differences for me, and why I like the old air/oil cooled engines are,
Cost of maintenance - less things to replace
Reliability - less things to go wrong
Character - sorry but the older air/oil cooled bikes tend to have a soul, and look like they have soul. A water/liquid cooled engine has no soul and they all look the same.
All good points, all debatable.
1. Cost of maintenance... I disagree. The new water-cooled, fuel-injected engines can go much longer between maintenances, they run at a cooler, more uniform operating temps with less "hot spots". And the longer engine life adds up to less money spent on major engine components in the long run.
2. Reliability... I disagree for the same reasons as #1, and if you base this on the number of moving parts, FI motors actually have fewer parts when it comes to carbs vs. throttle bodies. Ease of adjustment is much easier and precise than taking a bank of carbs off, changing jets, needles, spacers, etc. vs. plugging a box in.
As far as the water pump, you may have a point there, but the air/oil-cooled dual-stage oil pump is more complex than a single stage, it tends to balance out as far as the number of moving parts.
3. Character... Well, this one is just a matter of personal perception. To say that water-cooled engines have no "soul" is a bit unfair. There's plenty of water-coooled bikes and riders out there that would heartily disagree with you. :roll:
To say the "Character" is different may be more accurate, but I think no matter what bike you ride, if you ride it long enough you will attribute certain "personality" aspects to it, thus the "soul" of the bike usually reflects the soul of the rider. :wink:
Hey, nothing taken away from the air/carb bikes, they are great, fire-breathing beasts and I hope they will be around for a long time. At the same time, nothing wrong with FI/WC bikes either, and I think they'll be building a great reputation soon enough. :bigok:
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Just to put my comments on FI/WC bikes in to some context, I haven't ridden a FI bike for 5 years. So it would stand to reason that the manufacturers have got their act together and improved the fuelling at lower throttle openings.
By the way in Oz WC is used in building plans to show where the "dunny", "shitter", "Thunder Box", toilet is...so had a little snigger
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Just to put my comments on FI/WC bikes in to some context, I haven't ridden a FI bike for 5 years. So it would stand to reason that the manufacturers have got their act together and improved the fuelling at lower throttle openings.
By the way in Oz WC is used in building plans to show where the "dunny", "shitter", "Thunder Box", toilet is...so had a little snigger
WC as in "Water Closet"? Ha ha! I can see where you'd get a snigger in on that, Aussie. :beers:
The secondary throttles plates are designed to control air flow as well so the A/F mixture can be controlled precisely. This eliminates the low-mid roughness. At least no reports of problems in the few reviews so far, only crisp, smooth throttle response across the RPM range.
Different strokes for different folks, aye? You like air/carbs, I like WC/EFI, I hope that someday we can go riding together for some fun and then beers. :bigok:
At least you aren't one of those sorry-ass whiners that has to keep taking cheap shots at the new B1250 to try and make themselves feel superior. :roll: Let 'em go spend twice as much money for just a little more motorcycle... if that's what it takes to keep their "pride" intact then they better have plenty of it! :duh:
:scaredmouse: :banana:
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Mate, I would never seriously have a go about any bike. Yes I do make jokes about Harley Fergusons (sorry Harley Davidsons), or the rice burning Harley wannabes. But at the end of the day, I honestly don't care what style/brand of bike a person rides, just so long as they ride, and enjoy it.
If I wasn't so in love with my 02B12 I'd certainly look at the new B1250 - I like the look and if I enjoyed the ride, was comfortable, and it did everything I wanted, I'd buy one.
The other thing that's stopping me is 'The Treasurer' wants to sell her M750 and buy a BMW F800 - which I have no problem with because it means we'll be able to do more 'touring' as she'll be somewhat more comfortable.
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Mate, I would never seriously have a go about any bike. Yes I do make jokes about Harley Fergusons (sorry Harley Davidsons), or the rice burning Harley wannabes. But at the end of the day, I honestly don't care what style/brand of bike a person rides, just so long as they ride, and enjoy it.
If I wasn't so in love with my 02B12 I'd certainly look at the new B1250 - I like the look and if I enjoyed the ride, was comfortable, and it did everything I wanted, I'd buy one.
The other thing that's stopping me is 'The Treasurer' wants to sell her M750 and buy a BMW F800 - which I have no problem with because it means we'll be able to do more 'touring' as she'll be somewhat more comfortable.
I'm with ya, Aussie, you won't hear me trashing anyone's bike either, but I agree that Hardley's are fair game. :grin:
Something about the new B1250 that seems to threaten some folks "manhood", though... have you noticed that? :banana:
I think it's great that your Lady is getting the Beemer... your Bandit is a great bike and it'll definitely keep you ahead of her. :wink:
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Mate, I would never seriously have a go about any bike. Yes I do make jokes about Harley Fergusons (sorry Harley Davidsons), or the rice burning Harley wannabes. But at the end of the day, I honestly don't care what style/brand of bike a person rides, just so long as they ride, and enjoy it.
If I wasn't so in love with my 02B12 I'd certainly look at the new B1250 - I like the look and if I enjoyed the ride, was comfortable, and it did everything I wanted, I'd buy one.
The other thing that's stopping me is 'The Treasurer' wants to sell her M750 and buy a BMW F800 - which I have no problem with because it means we'll be able to do more 'touring' as she'll be somewhat more comfortable.
I'm with ya, Aussie, you won't hear me trashing anyone's bike either, but I agree that Hardley's are fair game. :grin:
Something about the new B1250 that seems to threaten some folks "manhood", though... have you noticed that? :banana:
I think it's great that your Lady is getting the Beemer... your Bandit is a great bike and it'll definitely keep you ahead of her. :wink:
Most of the people I speak to in Oz simply start drooling when I tell them that the Bandit is coming out with Fuel Injuction and water cooling - and when I mention that it's now 1250 not 1152 they go all weak at the knees and can't speak properly.
As for the B12 keeping ahead of "The Treasurer" on the F800, well the M750 has roughly 15 less horses (or 30 less than the b12) and she still gives me run for my money - particularly in the tighter corners - straightline outright grunt no - but when you take power out of the picture - she's pretty damn quick...
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When my sons were young we rode dirt bikes, we spent many a weekend at California Cty, Red Rock Canyon, Gorman or Balenger Canyon. The bikes were air cooled 125s and 250s. Two or three times a year I would be replacing the ring and piston on one of the bikes. I bought my oldest son a new 1981 YZ 125 when he was 12, he rode it until he was 18, 6 years and we never had to take the engine apart.
Our 1200 Bandits are air cooled, with an oil cooler to help keep the oil temp down. Every one, even Harley( V-Rod) is going to water cooled engines, thats just the way it is :motorsmile:
True. The XS750 Yamaha triple burned oil because it had no oil cooler. The cure was to install an oil cooler from and XS850 or run Mobil 1, which didn't burn. Don't know much about dirt bikes - were those YZ's two-strokes? Yamama quit making stink-pots about 1979, I bleev, due to the change in pollution requirements. That RD400 was quite a machine . . . too bad.
Herb
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Mate, I would never seriously have a go about any bike. Yes I do make jokes about Harley Fergusons (sorry Harley Davidsons), or the rice burning Harley wannabes. But at the end of the day, I honestly don't care what style/brand of bike a person rides, just so long as they ride, and enjoy it.
If I wasn't so in love with my 02B12 I'd certainly look at the new B1250 - I like the look and if I enjoyed the ride, was comfortable, and it did everything I wanted, I'd buy one.
The other thing that's stopping me is 'The Treasurer' wants to sell her M750 and buy a BMW F800 - which I have no problem with because it means we'll be able to do more 'touring' as she'll be somewhat more comfortable.
I'm with ya, Aussie, you won't hear me trashing anyone's bike either, but I agree that Hardley's are fair game. :grin:
Something about the new B1250 that seems to threaten some folks "manhood", though... have you noticed that? :banana:
I think it's great that your Lady is getting the Beemer... your Bandit is a great bike and it'll definitely keep you ahead of her. :wink:
Hey what is this trash talkin about manhood? Just cause I can't find a single thing to complain about on my 1299 BandBusa and swear its the best bike on the road for the larger spirited squidly want to be bike riding junky? Hey I still have fond memories of my 1G B12S and wanted to tell the buds on my favorite site!! But I don't miss the puckered feeling when I came up on a corner in the dead of a dark night with that less than adequate headlight! And the less than 42 MPG. When now off the show room this bike will show you the Pine cones on both sides of the road @ tree top level, Cagers are flashing their lights a mile away when you have yours on Hi beam to see what coming up on the horizon. 45 mpg @ ticket speeds in comfort. But I never knew what I was missing until now. I'm talkin trash cause I have only seen the 1250 at bike week here and didn't even site on it. Zuki had a sign on the seat. Hey as long as you ride and respect the addiction of others that share your ideology :bigok: For less than 2K difference for the GSX1300R, available and proven, as comfy as any! They brought the bandit back for the same reason some would rather push a Hardly (to the dealer) than ride one of those other bikes! OK i Know! :stfu:
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As for fuel injection - I really do prefer carburators, why.
Well, besides the fact that if something goes wrong with EFI it's BIG dollars. I've found all the fuel injected nakeds I test rode before buying the B12 wouldn't 'behave' at low speed/low revs/low throttle openings. In other words, they worked really well on the open road and when 'playing', but for me a bike has to be able to do the low speed/low rev/low throttle open drudgery of riding round town, just as well as it does the open road stuff.
Two points:
1) My previous bike was FI and my current bike is FI and my next bike (B1250) will have FI. My cars for the past 15 years have all had FI and I've not had problems with any of them but I have had easier starting, no problems running rough when cold, good fuel economy and great performance. When I did have cars/bikes with carbs I spent money getting them balanced, jets replaced etc. so, to me, FI is a good thing.
2) Many FI bikes have experienced rough running at certain rpm because the manufacturers have tried to map the FI to meet emission regulations at certain rpm. This has often been seen with high bhp machinery where the mapping is radically different at the measurement rpm. Aftermarket re-mapping has helped in some of these instances. The new B1250 isn't tuned for top-end power but low-end torque and Suzuki have succeeded in producing an engine that meets emission regulations but has a superb throttle response with no fuelling issues. So, it's just as brilliant around town as it is on the open road. The bottom line is that it isn't FI per se that is causing the problem but manufacturers trying to aim for high output engines AND meet emission regulations and it is unlikely that a carb bike would meet the regulations anyway. If you want to experience a good FI setup, try the B1250.
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To Suzuki's credit, their EFI systems typically have gotten rave reviews from the press for their smooth operation, regardless of the style of bike it is..
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I didn't even consider a Bandit last year due to the lack of FI and WC'ing. Mainly due to this being my first bike- and not wanting to deal with the inevetable maintenence of the carbs. Never fooled with carbs before. my dad is old school- but after I built my Trans Am with big cam and kept the EFI- he said he was amazed at the drivability of it. Now I know our bikes are a way different FI- but the principles are the same- I firmly believe in the simplicity of EFI and the electronics that control it. i appreciate you guys that have the ability to keeps those 4 carbs in perfect sych...but I just wanna push the start button and roll out. nothing beats efi when it comes to that.
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I didn't even consider a Bandit last year due to the lack of FI and WC'ing. Mainly due to this being my first bike- and not wanting to deal with the inevetable maintenence of the carbs. Never fooled with carbs before. my dad is old school- but after I built my Trans Am with big cam and kept the EFI- he said he was amazed at the drivability of it. Now I know our bikes are a way different FI- but the principles are the same- I firmly believe in the simplicity of EFI and the electronics that control it. i appreciate you guys that have the ability to keeps those 4 carbs in perfect sych...but I just wanna push the start button and roll out. nothing beats efi when it comes to that.
I had never fooled with carbs before this bike but they really aren't all that difficult once you tear into them...having said that I prefer FI...but you couldn't get FI on the 06 :wink:
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Guys, guys ... there's a simple solution to this whole old-school Vs. state-of-the-art debate. Just have one of each in your garage! When I want comfort, performance, reliability and ease of operation, out comes the Bandit 1250. When I want to ride something finicky, noisy, tempermental, heavy, smoky, smelly, and that handles like a brick, out comes the old GT750 (for some strange reason, I LOVE that old bike!).