Author Topic: ethanol race fuel (Read 6684 times)

b4cruz · « **on:** June 21, 2005, 05:35:33 PM »

http://www.e10unleaded.com/motorcycles.htm
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/269605551/m/105601396
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/

i wanted to use ethanol like they do in indy cars for more horsepower and a cheap alternative to gasoline. Has anyone here experimented with ethanol or race fuel in thier stock bandits? What percentage/mixture can we do?

mike · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2005, 07:28:28 PM »

I could be wrong... but it seems the higher performance engines in racing use higher compression engines, which tend to need better and hotter burning fuels to maximize pressure in the combustion chamber. The Bandit's a low compression engine in stock form, that's why running 93 octane is a waste - the lower 87 octane fuels run the same. Ethanol E85 is a high octane fuel at 102. Another consideration, is high performance fuels probably require a different air/fuel mix, which means rejetting the stock Bandit.

For additional Bandit power-seems like it would be more cost effective to modify a stock Bandit motor with some of the tried and true methods-like jet kit/exhaust and maybe a gixxer cam. Or for big power a big bore kit if you're really looking for power increase.

Maybe even a high compression piston kit, then you'd need the higher octane fuels for sure, but probably not more than premium 93.

I dunno, just thinking out loud... Worth considering the info even if just for info value.

Good Luck,

Red01 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 21, 2005, 08:31:13 PM »

Mike hit the nail right on the head. Note in your first link, every OEM stated not to run a blend greater than 10%. Some localities don't give you any options due to EPA air quality mandates. Areas with better air quality often give you the choice, based on brand and/or grade. Up here in the Seattle area we used to get oxygenated fuel (10% ethanol) in the winter, but our air quality improved enough a few years ago that the EPA dropped the requirement. Now the only places you can buy the stuff is Arco (in their regular and mid grade) and in the last year or so, Union 76.

The alcohol can cause problems of its own... a friend of mine who has been a "Mr. Goodwrench" at a Chevy dealer for years tells me nearly every car that comes in with a fuel injection problem has been fed a constant diet of ethanol laced gas. The alcohol isn't as friendly to O-rings and erodes tiny passages. Power and economy will also be less. I have never run this stuff in my B12, but I used to run Arco gas in my cars all the time - until my friend talked me into trying unlaced gas. I noticed an immediate improvement in fuel economy - ~2-3 MPG on a car that was getting 23. Power and throttle response was improved also.

Racing engines that run on pure alcohol usually have compression ratios 2-3 full points higher than a gasoline engine. Carb jetting is usually close to double... which means economy is right out the window!

b4cruz · « **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2005, 12:17:25 AM »

the b400 has a 11.8:1 compression ratio.
but like red says the alcohol may eat up
all the seals in the carbs.

unless these racing carbs can use the ethanol!
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=1605

If the compression and carbs are the only issue
I think it'd be fun to brew my own fuel @ home
and have a bike that might eat lots of ethanol
but still run great. You are both right though
it wouldn't be economical after fuel consumption
and cost of the racing carbs.

maybe the F1-KAWI is a better econo/enviro bike
running on homebrew Bio-Diesel (B20 or B100)
or extra/leftover Aviation Kerosene

IF THEY WOULD EVER MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC!!!!
http://www.f1engineering.com/diesel%20bike%20specs.html

PitterB4 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 22, 2005, 08:53:57 AM »

As anyone who spends any time here knows, I'm no tree-hugger. And, I don't mean to spin this into a political discussion but, I can't understand why more resources (private ones of course) aren't devoted to making this a bigger portion of our energy plan. There's obviously some big political reason but I can't figure it out. It would employ tons of American farmers rather than Iranian Shieks. The refineries would have to retool to become huge stills - maybe that's the problem, too. It just seems so much more practical than all the goofy electric hybrid stuff they are doing now.

Anyway... Theif400/Chris has speculated for a while that a lot of the B4 carb problems are related to oxygenated fuel. I know that my orings were completely shot.

We get seasonal oxygenated fuel here, too. I always get a 2-3mpg uptick in economy in the spring when they switch.

mike · « **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2005, 10:03:10 AM »

Sorry Cruz, I didn't snap to your username being b4. Since the post was in a general tech forum, I just assumed we were talking abount general tech info... From Rob's info, sounds like the 400 crew has dicussed this in the past... Good luck on the brew... I kinda gave up on mixing gas at home when I sold my last motocross 2 stroker... it wasn't bad at a track, but sucked when I ran out of gas on a trail and needed my oil mix (back in my truck) to get to a pickup point. Either push it or leave it trailside and bum a ride back.

The crude oil political environment is a nightmare.-ughh! So much money and political influence has been in the petroleum industry for decades, it's probably like pulling teeth to get consideration on new fuel technologies much less new fuel standards. I betc there's been tons of good ideas on alternate fuels that get squashed by industry and politics to protect their economic position-When it should have been researched and tested.

tacoman · « **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2005, 02:09:44 PM »

I 3rd (or 4th) the oxygenated fuel issue. This stuff is murder on boats, the carbs have extra venting etc and all the extra orings get eaten. I have a diesel truck and have been studying up on making my own bio-diesel. You can brew this yourself pretty easily and no road tax. Works out to be about 70 cents per gal. Its not all rosy though, if you get too much by-product in there it becomes very corrosive and can easily eat a very expensive injector. When regular petroleum based fuel hits $3.00 plus per gal. we'll see new technologies.

Airmotive · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2005, 11:13:07 PM »

Regarding the link to the 'alcohol guy': this snake oil salesman is telling a bunch of lies in order to sell his crap. (This coming from a guy (me) who genuinely would like to see the US convert to an alcohol economy).

Gasoline has a Btu rating of 19,000.
Alcohol has a rating of 8100

The reason various racing engines use alcohol is that the limiting factor in these engines is the amount of air they can move. It's easier to make large amounts of power if you have a fuel, such as ethanol, that has a 6 to 1 stoikiometric air/fuel mixture (vs gasoline's 12-14 to 1). You don't need as much air....well you still cram in as much air as you can but now you can dump in a LOT more fuel without having an over-rich mixture. Hell, the nitro-methane running the NHRA guys has a 2 to 1 stoik ratio. Big power! Horrible mileage...but big power!

Expect mileage to drop by about 1/2 with alcohol. Why? There's only about half the energy available in a gallon of alcohol as compared to a gallon of gasoline.

Lastly, his claim that there's 2 million cars on the road that can run on alcohol but the car manufacturers don't want us to know about it?!!

I always knew the Big Three were actually a proactive bunch of tree huggers, always willing to drop a few hundred million bucks to develop new, cleaner running cars without any prodding from the government. They just want to keep that a secret!

If you want to run alcohol, go for it. Just do so realizing that it is not as good as a fuel as gasoline. It IS renewable. It IS clean burning. However, it takes twice the alcohol to produce the same energy...and for that matter...it takes nearly as much energy to distill it as you get out of the final product.

b4cruz · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2005, 09:54:29 PM »

actually you guys were really cool about the politcal stuff
on other boards i've actually offended people with similar links

I just want to keep researching other options,
home brewing ethanol isn't that bad
and since I can't get a cool f1 diesel kawi for biodiesel
I think my b4 & home distillery with a slight mix of regular gasoline
could be fun with the right racing carbs.

Gas will go to $3 dollars by january 2006
Diesel is buffering the price jump by being pricier than gasoline currently.
Most economist speculate some bad things to come.

Don't read past this line if you get offended by political rants
*****************************************************
As a society we really got suckered into using fossil fuels just like crack addicts. There were many early electric horseless carriages, and even water vapor and hydrogen technologies plenty of renewable energy infrastructures. In capitalist societies profit is too important and renewable systems can't offer this, so consumers have to be exploited and used to benefit the wealthy.

b4cruz · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2005, 10:06:29 PM »

more politics (So don't read if you don't like)

Quote from: "PitterB4"

but, I can't understand why more resources (private ones of course) aren't devoted to making this a bigger portion of our energy plan. There's obviously some big political reason but I can't figure it out. It would employ tons of American farmers rather than Iranian Shieks. The refineries would have to retool to become huge stills - maybe that's the problem, too. It just seems so much more practical than all the goofy electric hybrid stuff they are doing now.

Ethanol and biodiesel are making a pretty big dent in the market right now. More so than Hydrogen. There are way more bioD stations than hydrogen stations. Willy nelson and neil young both run thier whole fleet of tour buses on biodiesel. Hydrogen will be around in the future because that is what all the oil companies have invested in.

The problem with ethanol and biodiesel is using plants as a fuel system uses too much energy so its not much cleaner or effiecient. But I think dirty skies and an American Farm Cartel are better than political unrest and exploitation in the middle east and a Saudi Cartel. I mean the dairy industry is pretty bad and has made us all fat and stupid, but it never caused any wars and mas deaths.

b4cruz · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2005, 10:09:59 PM »

Quote from: "mike"

Sorry Cruz, I didn't snap to your username being b4.

Its good you mentioned b12s are lower compression. If someone in general wanted to experiment with a b12 it'd be much harder. I always forget they have lower compression.

Red01 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2005, 10:54:09 PM »

Quote from: "b4cruz"

In capitalist societies profit is too important and renewable systems can't offer this, so consumers have to be exploited and used to benefit the wealthy.

So where's all the renewable systems the non-capitalist societies use?

Oh, wait, that's right... they have bicycles, pedicabs, animals and just plain walking to wherever you want to go.

Actually, hydrogen as a fuel for internal combustion engines would be welcomed by me... a gasoline engine is twice as efficient on hydrogen and the comustion byproduct is water. Wouldn't take too much engineering to have a vehicle contain it's water to be drained off and broken down again to its hydrogen and oxygen components and burn it again. The bigger problem is a cost-effective way to produce hydrogen.

smooth operator · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2005, 04:45:48 PM »

I have just stock compresion,no head work as of yet. But I swear I can tell the differenc when I run Cam2. And it smells good too

Bazza · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:21:24 AM »

To add to Paul’s earlier statement, I believe all automotive manufacturers do not recommend adding ethanol to fuel injection systems period. (Voids your warranty) This includes the use of gas line antifreeze.

It actually takes more energy to manufacture a gallon of ethanol than it produces. Another case of miss informed governments bowing to special interest groups.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html

jesjames9598 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2005, 06:51:27 AM »

I don't know about ethanol but I use methanol in my gsxr 1000 engined speedway sidecar,fuel injection requires major overhaul because of the corosive qualities,aswell as the need to drain after each meeting and running some standard fuel through.Remapping was dramatic as needs to run heaps and heaps richer.also run 15/1 comp to burn properly.When you get it right though it bloody flies 200 hp not unheard off.