STP oil treatment good snake oil, yes?

[CWO4GUNNER]

Like most of you I have been riding and working on my bike's for a long time so I know better when it comes to the general theory and use of lubricant. So I don't usually mention my use of this product because it stirs controversy but its the only true to life topic I can come up with right now. No matter what   engine oils I have used whether fossil based or synthetic I coming back to use STP oil treatment as an additive and booster between oil changes. In my cars at regular oil change and as a booster at 3500 to the next oil change at 7500 miles. On all my wet clutch motorcycles in exact proportional quantities 1 ounce per quart. The simple fact is that I always notice a marked improvement in how smoothly my vehicles start, run, and operate (motorcycles shift) when I use it, especially as a booster which saves me money between oil changes. OK fire away

[Red01]

My only experiences with STP:

1) Back in the dawn of internal combustion engines (well, maybe not quite THAT long ago)    I was teamed with a classmate to rebuilt my second engine, a '66 Pontiac GTO 389 Tri-Power that snapped the cam in two, in high school auto shop because my teammate's brother used STP everytime his GTO got low on oil. I guess his idea was the thick STP would burn/leak slower than 10W30. The engine must have reached the point where the STP/motor oil ratio was 100%/0% because when we went to drain the oil, nothing came out. When we pulled the oil pan, there was about a gallon of goo in the pan that you could poke your finger in and it wouldn't flow back when you pulled your finger out... even DAYS later.
Quickly explained why the cam broke.

2) STP makes a pretty good assembly lube for putting an engine back together. It'll stay in place until the oil pump can deliver normal oil to those critical frictional surfaces. It'll mix with the oil then - and out it goes with the first oil change. Usually the "dose" in this application is lower than what the label "recommends."

I realize #1 was the abuse of what STP is intended for, but it was enough for me to stay away from it except for use as in #2... and only for #2.

[Bob Holland]

I have never used STP oil treatment in a motorcycle, but have always been warned not to. I was told that it would make the clutch slip

I did use it in my 56 mercury, without it, the rings would not hold enough compression for the engine to start.

[CWO4GUNNER]

Yes you defiantly have to stick to 1 ounce per quart in wet clutch motorcycles or the strong friction reducers will overwhelm the friction plates. Too much is defiantly not good. Although STP will not admit to it the formula was taken from the Germans after WW2 who had developed it as an additive to extend old oil life indefinitely for all their war machines as the allies were cutting off petroleum supplies. STP was adopted abbreviation which stands for Scientifically Treated Petroleum.

[H2RICK]

Yes, there are tales from the desert war in North Africa when the Brits were chasing Rommel up and down the desert of finding these barrels of this very gooey clear yellowish stuff left behind by the retreating Afrika Korps. No one had a suitable explanation for it until some of the captured German mechanics revealed what it was. Evidently this precursor of STP was what kept the Wehrmacht tanks running even with heavy sand loading of the normal engine lubes.
Meanwhile, the Brits (and later, the Americans) were faced with continual engine failures in their armour since sand WILL work its way around ANY filter system eventually.

Have I ever used STP myself ?? No, but I WILL be changing over to a full synthetic for my Bandit this coming Spring with the first oil change. Porbably Amsoil will be the lube of choice although Red Line is also a contender. Unfortunately Red Line is not as available as Amsoil in this end of the world although I remember someone posting in another thread that it was available at Cambodian Tire now. I'll have to check it out.
Gunner, if STP works for you, keep using it. Ya go with what ya know...yaknowwhatImean ???

[Ranger]

[CWO4GUNNER]

I agree and have changed and now use Walmart brand called "SuperTech 10W-30W full synthetic" $12 5q bottle. I only use the STP as a booster after 3000 because I am too lazy to change my own oil knowing I can push it to 5000. in my cars I push it to 7500 and my Nissan P/U now has 190K and still runs great.

Yes, there are tales from the desert war in North Africa when the Brits were chasing Rommel up and down the desert of finding these barrels of this very gooey clear yellowish stuff left behind by the retreating Afrika Korps. No one had a suitable explanation for it until some of the captured German mechanics revealed what it was. Evidently this precursor of STP was what kept the Wehrmacht tanks running even with heavy sand loading of the normal engine lubes.
Meanwhile, the Brits (and later, the Americans) were faced with continual engine failures in their armour since sand WILL work its way around ANY filter system eventually.

Have I ever used STP myself ?? No, but I WILL be changing over to a full synthetic for my Bandit this coming Spring with the first oil change. Porbably Amsoil will be the lube of choice although Red Line is also a contender. Unfortunately Red Line is not as available as Amsoil in this end of the world although I remember someone posting in another thread that it was available at Cambodian Tire now. I'll have to check it out.
Gunner, if STP works for you, keep using it. Ya go with what ya know...yaknowwhatImean ???

[pmackie]

OK boys and girls - Lube Oil 101 - Viscosity Modifiers (VII)

I haven't seen the composition of STP for likely over a decade, but this product was, and most "engine honeys" are, based on known petroleum technology.

This may get a little long and techincal, but I'll Coles Notes it as best I can.

To manufacture a "multigrade" oil (5W-30, 10W-30 etc), you typically start with a lighter base oil (5W or 10W) and add a Viscosity Index Improver (VII). A VII is basically a "chopped rubber" product, or a long chain polymer. These polymers basically "wrap" themselves up at cold temperatures, and so stay out of the way, but at hot temperatures "spread out" and link together to form a web, which traps oil molecules, making the oil act like a thicker oil. So far, so good. VII's also tend to improve the effectiveness of oil rings, usually cutting down on oil migration into combustion chambers.

The problem with VII's is that all are prone to shearing...heavy forces, such as gears, cams, tappets, etc. tend to cut the VII's into shorter and shorter chains, causing the beneficial properties to degrade over time. Different VII's have better or worse "spread out & link" properties, and better of worse "shearing" properties.

Many engine honey's are made from PolyIsoButylene (PIB). PIB is still commonly used as a tackifier in things such as Chain Bar Oils, or Spindle Oils and some greases. PIB is a very effective VII with a very short life.

Back in the early days you could "boost" your 10W30 into a 10W40 or 20W50 by adding things like STP. For a 60's vintage race car, this added viscosity and lower oil consumption was a great idea for a 2-4 hour race. It didn't matter that most of the effect was gone in a short period of time, as you were going to dump the oil anyway...I'll let you determine how much effect was left after 200+ hours. (not much)

These days, there are better VII's than PIB, and they're typically in your oil now. Diesel engine oils tend to have more shear resistant VII's, synthetic oils (PAO's) tend to need lower treat rates of VII's. Most engine honey's will at best provide a short term increase in High Temperature viscosity, typically at the expense of Low Temperature viscosity, at worst will cause unexpected problems, like Red01's case above.

So...is there ever a time to use them? Absolutely...extreme situations may require extreme measures. A real world example given to me by a Maintenance Super at a large mine. Driving across the Prairies at 2:00 am in his MGB, he had an oil ring break. Engine is now using oil like crazy. How do you get the oil consumption down and limp the thing 10 hours home. Well, this might be a time for STP or similar. Your going to have to rebuild the engine anyway, so go ahead and use something. But that doesn't mean that it will provide any long lasting benefit in normal conditions.

Next weeks lesson...HTHS (high temp high shear) viscosity and temporary vs permanent viscosity loss.

[CWO4GUNNER]

Yup your probably right, but at $3 for 15 ounces and 1 ounce a quart treatment, its a compromise I can live with.  

OK boys and girls - Lube Oil 101 - Viscosity Modifiers (VII)

I haven't seen the composition of STP for likely over a decade, but this product was, and most "engine honeys" are, based on known petroleum technology.

This may get a little long and techincal, but I'll Coles Notes it as best I can.

To manufacture a "multigrade" oil (5W-30, 10W-30 etc), you typically start with a lighter base oil (5W or 10W) and add a Viscosity Index Improver (VII). A VII is basically a "chopped rubber" product, or a long chain polymer. These polymers basically "wrap" themselves up at cold temperatures, and so stay out of the way, but at hot temperatures "spread out" and link together to form a web, which traps oil molecules, making the oil act like a thicker oil. So far, so good. VII's also tend to improve the effectiveness of oil rings, usually cutting down on oil migration into combustion chambers.

The problem with VII's is that all are prone to shearing...heavy forces, such as gears, cams, tappets, etc. tend to cut the VII's into shorter and shorter chains, causing the beneficial properties to degrade over time. Different VII's have better or worse "spread out & link" properties, and better of worse "shearing" properties.

Many engine honey's are made from PolyIsoButylene (PIB). PIB is still commonly used as a tackifier in things such as Chain Bar Oils, or Spindle Oils and some greases. PIB is a very effective VII with a very short life.

Back in the early days you could "boost" your 10W30 into a 10W40 or 20W50 by adding things like STP. For a 60's vintage race car, this added viscosity and lower oil consumption was a great idea for a 2-4 hour race. It didn't matter that most of the effect was gone in a short period of time, as you were going to dump the oil anyway...I'll let you determine how much effect was left after 200+ hours. (not much)

These days, there are better VII's than PIB, and they're typically in your oil now. Diesel engine oils tend to have more shear resistant VII's, synthetic oils (PAO's) tend to need lower treat rates of VII's. Most engine honey's will at best provide a short term increase in High Temperature viscosity, typically at the expense of Low Temperature viscosity, at worst will cause unexpected problems, like Red01's case above.

So...is there ever a time to use them? Absolutely...extreme situations may require extreme measures. A real world example given to me by a Maintenance Super at a large mine. Driving across the Prairies at 2:00 am in his MGB, he had an oil ring break. Engine is now using oil like crazy. How do you get the oil consumption down and limp the thing 10 hours home. Well, this might be a time for STP or similar. Your going to have to rebuild the engine anyway, so go ahead and use something. But that doesn't mean that it will provide any long lasting benefit in normal conditions.

Next weeks lesson...HTHS (high temp high shear) viscosity and temporary vs permanent viscosity loss.

[PitterB4]

. When we pulled the oil pan, there was about a gallon of goo in the pan that you could poke your finger in and it wouldn't flow back when you pulled your finger out... even DAYS later.
Quickly explained why the cam broke.

Great visual!

[H2RICK]

OK boys and girls - Lube Oil 101 - Viscosity Modifiers (VII)

Pmackie, thank you for that. It's nice to see complex stuff explained so that even a guy like me can understand it. I knew about VII's but wasn't quite clear on exactly how they worked.
Now I know.
As an aside, one of the most interesting people I ever talked to was a lube engineer from Shell Canada. I not sure what that says about me, though.....  

[CWO4GUNNER]

I have to admit I have heard of a couple of stories about how it balls up in cold weather but I never had a problem with it when I lived in CA or here in AZ. So maybe the fact that I use so little in a warm environment explains why I notice an improvement in starting and performance when I use it. Could be those binders are keeping all the oil on the moving parts better.

Yup that's it!

[pmackie]

At the treat rate your using, I wouldn't expect any problems.

I'm a bit of a skeptic that it actually provides much benefit, but if your using 10W40, your nudgeing up the SAE 40 viscosity for a while, but likely nudgeing up the SAE 10W vis as well. If that's what you wanted.

[2005B12S]

My solution is to use a good quality motorcycle specific synthetic oil such as Maxum4 (15W-50) and change it frequently.

My B12 gets run hard, changes are done at about 1500 miles. If I was touring, I would probably go 3000 miles between changes. In any air cooled machine I would not go longer than 3000 miles.


Ride On, Ed.