Author Topic: Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)  (Read 12028 times)

Offline rider123

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 991
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« on: November 01, 2005, 02:54:43 PM »
Hello I seem to have a ever so slight stumble just off idle at very small throttle inputs. My bike is a 2005 B1200S with stock everything and I haven't pulled the plugs off the carbs at least untill either the warranty period is up or my first 1000kms service. I don't have the manual yet  :sad: but I know just from the specs that the compression is low enough that I don't need high octane gas. I've been filling up with med grade (89) as a pre-caution untill I get some sort of verification from the manual that regular gas is ok. What I'd like to know is:

1. Could the slight stumble be caused by the octane being higher than a recomended 87? If the gas is slightly less "burnable" very slight throttle inputs would exagerate the problem. Personally, I don't think this is the problem but I like to explore all the angles. Is regular gas ok? I may try a tankfull and see if it helps.

2. Jetting, I understand that these bikes leave the factory slightly lean to try and slip by the facists at the EPA. When the stumble comes on at the specified throttle input, it works fine for about 2 secs then slightly stumbles then works again for another 2 secs. What I'm thinking is that when you first put the throttle so that it will stumble the carbs are already primed and ready to go from normal throttle inputs as you demand slightly more gas at low rpm(<1500rpm) there isn't enough vacuum to draw that teeny tiny little bit of exta gas through the pilots to get you over the hump. It seems that only one cylinder is not getting enough juice to get over this hump so normally you could experiment by backing off 1/8th of a turn on each cylinder to see if it helps once you find which cylinder is slightly lean you just give it that little teeny bit of extra gas it needs and you're good to go. Or if you want to play it safe just turn all the pilots out an 1/8th of a turn and it usually cleans up any carburation issues and may give you better throttle response. But due to the EPA wanting to be our mommies  :duh:  we can't do this very minor and nessesary adjustment without voiding warranties and such. Once over the "hump"(>1500rpm) vacuum takes over and there is no stumble at all. So I feel this is a very minor problem. It also has been cold and sh!tty so who knows maybe in the summer it's perfect.

3. Carb Sync, this is the easiest explaination. One cylinder is synced slightly less than the other and is not pulling it weight. This slight mal-adjustment would be exaggerated at low rpm and low vacuum. This would be fixed at the 1000km service. When I received my bike is was super crappy outside and the dealer told me that the mechanic took it only for a very short ride so this mal-adjustment might have gone unoticed because unless you were specifically looking for it you would never notice it at all.


As I said it's extremly minor and I only noticed it in the last little while. If you put someone on the bike who's never ridden it before I'd wager he wouldn't even notice it. If it is a jetting issue it's so slight I can wait untill the warranty period is up and by then I'll be probably looking at slip on's and jet kits anyway. Thanks for any input.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline PaulVS

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2005, 02:57:35 PM »
I'd go with the carb sync first.


Offline rider123

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 991
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2005, 05:22:39 PM »
My thoughts exactly, first simple then more complicated. If the dealership didn't take it out for a proper test ride they probably didn't test the thing properly and figured if it rode ok they could fix it at 1000kms. I'll put in some regular gas just to eliminate that option.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline rider123

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 991
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2005, 08:30:17 PM »
Is it maybe the TPS sensor off? I'm going to check tomorrow check out my TPS instructions post. It supposedly affect low throttle opening timings. Possibility? I'll post what I find if possible.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline PaulVS

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 08:47:48 PM »
I doubt it's the TPS on a new bike.  I have the same problem on a fairly new '03 with 4300 miles on it (Piped & jetted)

I''m pretty sure it's the carbs out of sync.  It's just an infrequent slight stumble that no one would notice except me.  Seems to happen most after I'm sitting at a stoplight for a long time.  (Like over a minute or so.)  The other 99.9% of the time it pulls like a mutha from idle to redline.  

Also, I kinda 'wrecked' my original carbs trying to get them out and jetting them.  I was lucky enough to get a complete new set (less than 100 miles on them) on Ebay in perfect condition, but who knows where the syncing is on them.

Carb syncing is one of the things on the 'to do' list after the first 600 miles or so.  I've yet to do it on mine.


Offline rider123

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 991
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 08:55:04 PM »
Good advice Paul, I'm going to wait regardless untill the first service, as it's a new bike things get stretched, pulled and moved out of adjustment. That's why the first service is very important. I will measure the TPS tomorrow because it is so easy to do. If it's out of alignment or mal adjusted I may even just leave it like that untill the first service. I'm just asking to be for armed with as much knowledge as posssible so the dealer can't give me any BS whcih we all know some dealers like to do. For-warned is for-armed. I'll post any info I have for the benefit of other people who may be having the same problem.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline ray nielsen

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2005, 09:14:08 PM »
I vote for a "lean stumble" caused by the mixture screws being too far in.

Removing the limiter caps and backing them out 1/2 turn should cure the problem -- it did on my 2003 Bandit 1200.  

The TPS was way off but it didn't cause the stumble, rather it was the cause of poor gas mileage.  After the mixture screws were opened a half turn I then turned attention to the TPS.  

There's a fairly good description on this site in the General section with several people (myself included) offering suggestions and how-top advice.

Of course carb synch will be the finishing touch and will probably result in smoother low speed running if it was off a bit from the factory.

Offline PaulVS

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2005, 09:23:30 PM »
You said you don't want to mess with it right until the warranty is up.  

But I'll second what Ray said... go ahead and drill out those plugs and give the A/F screws a 1/2 turn out.  They are probably the most idle & off-idle related part of the carburetion... and they are set too lean from the factory.

Regardless... let us know the results of your TPS measurements.


Offline elofdahl

  • TURBO TYPER!
  • **
  • Posts: 28
    • http://www.bikepics.com/members/lofdahl1/03gsf1200/
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2005, 09:52:30 PM »
Sorry to be repetitive...but I'll "third that"...my '03 1200S did the same thing until I drilled out the carb mixture screw plugs and readjusted them.  They are now about 3 1/2 turns out.  This act does not void the manufacturer's basic warranty!

Eddie
Eddie
'03 B12 S
'06 KLR 650
'07 C6 LS2 Z51 MZ6
http://www.bikepics.com/members/lofdahl1/

Offline Bob Holland

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 510
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2005, 10:12:20 PM »
Quote from: "ray nielsen"
I vote for a "lean stumble" caused by the mixture screws being to far

I agree with you, just about all new bikes come on the lean side, and with cooler weather they will really be on the lean side.
If I didn't have a Suzuki, I would have a Kawasaki

Offline rider123

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 991
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2005, 07:00:04 AM »
Thanks guys good advice, on a "normal" carb I would have marked the stock settings and backed it out a 1/4 or half turn by now, but with these "new improved EPA carbs" it's a real pain in the ass. I don't know what those crazy hippies at the EPA were smoking but cmon!! Later in the week it's going to get semi-summer like weather (68 degress) so at least when she's warmed up I'll be able to tell if it gets less noticable. As I said you'd have to really look for it as is to notice. Also I did a quick check of my TPS but forgot to put my Ohm meter at a better resolution here are the specs:


Ohm 1 reading throttle closed---> 5.1K Ohm
Ohm 2 reading throttle open ----> 4.2 Ohm  <-----should be 3.9K!! out of wack right out of the factory!!


I'll fix the TPS tomorrow and see for fun if it helps, I know it does affect slow speed low throttle input running so who knows, it's good to have it properly adjusted anyway. If I'm guessing right the TPS "thinks" I have more throttle on than I do so maybe it's making the timing slighly off.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline fritobandito

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
too lean...
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2005, 02:20:02 PM »
Help me out here guys. Too lean means too much air, not enough gas in the mixture right? So backing out the screws to make it "richer" reduces? the amount of air flow into the mix?? Am I getting this right? Why is this so confusing??
Christ is Lord!

Offline PaulVS

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
Re: too lean...
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2005, 02:33:46 PM »
Quote from: "fritobandito"
Help me out here guys. Too lean means too much air, not enough gas in the mixture right? So backing out the screws to make it "richer" reduces? the amount of air flow into the mix?? Am I getting this right? Why is this so confusing??


Out (Counter-Clockwise) = Richer
In (Clockwise) = Leaner

I believe turning them out increases the fuel intake rather than decreasing the air intake.  

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


Offline rider123

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 991
Slight stumble off idle. Octane, jetting or sync?(updated)
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2005, 03:05:06 PM »
No you got it right, think of a gate on an irrigation ditch, you raise the gate and more water goes through. Close it up and less goes through.

My bike now, brand new 2005 needs more juice. It comes very lean from the factory. It would be great for the Ho chi Mihn trail or a tropical rainforest but not Canada. I'm going to get them to drill out the plugs at the 1000km service and back the pilots out a 1/4 - 1/2 turn. The sad thing is that's all it needs to drive beautifully. Today it's 18 degress and the bike runs slightly better due to it being slightly richer so I know for sure thats what it is.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline fritobandito

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
rejetted
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2005, 03:19:57 PM »
Ok, here's the thing: I believe my B12 has been rejetted since the caps are missing from the mixture screws and it has a full Yoshimura exhaust, along with the fact that the guy I bought it from said it was. It takes off very nicely with a lot of throttle. But with just a little bit of throttle, it kind of gurgles and sputters a tiny bit. But, no matter where I'm at on the throttle, when I let off, it pops a lot. But, acceleration is very smooth and throttle response is very quick and even. So, that being said, would trying to adjust the mixture screws accomplish anything for me? I've already checked and reset the TPS to the magical 76% thing night before last which didn't seem to have any effect on the aforementioned problem. Would I need to go up a size on the idle jet? Any ideas?? :banghead:
Christ is Lord!