Starting problem. Rrr..... click. click. click.

[pmackie]

Hi Stormi

After reading the thread and your comments it sounds like you need a battery.

A fully charged battery should measure 13.2 - 13.4 volts (it's funny that we call it a 12 v system?). 2.22 v per cell, 6 cells. Usually the charging system will output at 13.8-14.4 volts, so if you check it when the bikes running, it will be the higher numbers. If it's dropped below 11.5 v after a short try at starting, one or more cells is weak, indicating the battery is toast.

It's harder to check the current draw. Any battery place can load test a battery to determine if its still good however.

Don't start spending money on other things, (starter, solenoid, etc) until you are sure the battery is good.

If you are hearing a loud "TACK" like I expect you did on the Jeep, the solenoid is trying to engage the starter, but the starter is NOT turning. The same would be true on Dita, but it did try to turn over first, then you heard the click, click. (Just a guess, I wasn't there.)

[okbandit]

That is a loaded question, but here goes.  Bike has a very small battery and so a very small reserve of power to keep on cranking.  The low amps cause it to under rev and not start.  The jeep has a large battery, but the fault in the starter most likely was a poor connection in the solenoid.  That was causing it to "starve" for amperage that was available but not getting through.  The result again was low rpm, so I would guess it was the symptom that was the same and not the cause.  I would imagine the jeep would keep cranking slow for quite a while as opposed to the bikes one shot.  Like I said that is a really tough question so it is just one possible answer.

[stormi]

Hi Stormi

After reading the thread and your comments it sounds like you need a battery.

Yup,.. it's official.  I went through the electrosport test, and it agrees with ya all.  It says charging system good, battery fubar.

A fully charged battery should measure 13.2 - 13.4 volts (it's funny that we call it a 12 v system?). 2.22 v per cell, 6 cells. Usually the charging system will output at 13.8-14.4 volts, so if you check it when the bikes running, it will be the higher numbers. If it's dropped below 11.5 v after a short try at starting, one or more cells is weak, indicating the battery is toast.

Probably not unlike the way we do things in the computer industry.  Numbers actually round out to 1024, but are usually rounded off to 1000.  I'll get the shop to test the battery while I'm there, but I think you all are right, it's shot. It's a shame though, cos I tried to take care of this one.

Don't start spending money on other things, (starter, solenoid, etc) until you are sure the battery is good.

The starter I had, the solenoid I have seen enough fail that a spare wouldn't hurt, but I'll wait til the next order of stuff, this one will go through without.  What it comes down to is that it's worth it to order it with other stuff, rather than pay the Canadian prices.

If you are hearing a loud "TACK" like I expect you did on the Jeep, the solenoid is trying to engage the starter, but the starter is NOT turning. The same would be true on Dita, but it did try to turn over first, then you heard the click, click. (Just a guess, I wasn't there.)

I don't remember the Tack sound on the Jeep,.. just the annoying slow to wake up and then finally catch after what seemed like 30 secs of cranking.  I do know this Tack you speak of on the Bike though.  It's the click I referred to.

[stormi]

That is a loaded question, but here goes.  Bike has a very small battery and so a very small reserve of power to keep on cranking.  The low amps cause it to under rev and not start.  The jeep has a large battery, but the fault in the starter most likely was a poor connection in the solenoid.  That was causing it to "starve" for amperage that was available but not getting through.  The result again was low rpm, so I would guess it was the symptom that was the same and not the cause.  I would imagine the jeep would keep cranking slow for quite a while as opposed to the bikes one shot.  Like I said that is a really tough question so it is just one possible answer.

That makes sense to me. :)

Here's the other question then... is there no way to have a more powerful battery with the small footprint required for the motorcycle? Sort of a beer keg in a beer hat size? (Figured that was an analogy all the guys would get ;) )

[Red01]

Maybe someday - if they ever let us have nuclear batteries.  

[stormi]

Well,.. here's a neat development.  took the battery in today,...and it tested good.  

So,.. charging system is good, battery is good, she turns over fine today after charging the battery out of the bike,... I really don't like gremlins.  

Any ideas anyone?  I picked up a new battery anyway.  $55

Ahh,.. nuclear isn't all -that- scary... ;)

[ZenMan]

Charging the old battery might have brought it back enough to test good.

But if I were you, I'd test for a current drain. I'd put the new battery in the bike.

1. Hook up both battery terminals and start the bike.

2. With the bike running, activate all your lights and accessories momentarily... brake light, high/low beam, turn signals, everything. Then make sure everything is turned off.

3. Shut the bike off and disconnect the negative battery terminal.

4. Using a simple test light, touch one lead to the negative battery post and the other to the cable clamp.

If the bulb lights up then you have a current drain.

A current drain could be any closed circuit anywhere on the bike that is causing the battery to drain even when the key is off and nothing is turned on. If you have one, then you'll have to test every electrical component and wire on the bike till you find it.

If you don't, then just install the new battery and don't worry about it, it's probably fine and it was the old battery all along.

Don't get frustrated, Stormi! Ya gotta learn to enjoy this kinda stuff!  

Think of it as a challenge... matching your wits against the gremlins.... a mechanical chess game. Remember, every time you fix a problem like this you learn something valuable. Next thing you know, you'll be the one giving the answers on the board instead of asking the questions!  

[CWO4GUNNER]

If all is well from here on out, get yourself a quality battery tender that self regulates for the entire storage period (full time). They come with a quick connector for your battery that will allow you just to snap it in. The best way if you know your bike is winterized for 6 months, disconnect the battery from the bike terminals as this will ensure no tiny drainage against the battery tender. Your battery should last for more years then you'd expect.

[stormi]

Charging the old battery might have brought it back enough to test good.

The girl at the battery shop was quite surprised as well.  She said usually if they're bad, they don't test as perfect, which this one did.  265cranking Amps, and the full 120 CCA.  She tested it multiple times, because we were both so surprised.

But if I were you, I'd test for a current drain. I'd put the new battery in the bike.

1. Hook up both battery terminals and start the bike.

2. With the bike running, activate all your lights and accessories momentarily... brake light, high/low beam, turn signals, everything. Then make sure everything is turned off.

3. Shut the bike off and disconnect the negative battery terminal.

4. Using a simple test light, touch one lead to the negative battery post and the other to the cable clamp.

If the bulb lights up then you have a current drain.

A current drain could be any closed circuit anywhere on the bike that is causing the battery to drain even when the key is off and nothing is turned on. If you have one, then you'll have to test every electrical component and wire on the bike till you find it.

If you don't, then just install the new battery and don't worry about it, it's probably fine and it was the old battery all along.

Alright, I have another gremlin to work out, then I'll test for a leak.  I wonder if I didn't just find "the right" cable to wiggle, and the problem is going to go away for a few months.  That's so Dita.

Don't get frustrated, Stormi! Ya gotta learn to enjoy this kinda stuff!  

Think of it as a challenge... matching your wits against the gremlins.... a mechanical chess game. Remember, every time you fix a problem like this you learn something valuable. Next thing you know, you'll be the one giving the answers on the board instead of asking the questions!  

While I'm capable of the troubleshooting, I hate it.  I hate that I have to do it all the time with her.  Sometimes, I like to have quality time with her, and you know.... ride.  But I figure out more than my fair share of the problems, and usually post them for posterity's sake.  ( Maybe you just don't hang out in the B4 forum enough ;))  I rarely get beat by a machine, but when I do,.. it's almost always Dita.

[stormi]

If all is well from here on out, get yourself a quality battery tender that self regulates for the entire storage period (full time). They come with a quick connector for your battery that will allow you just to snap it in. The best way if you know your bike is winterized for 6 months, disconnect the battery from the bike terminals as this will ensure no tiny drainage against the battery tender. Your battery should last for more years then you'd expect.

Oh I've already got that covered.  The logistics issue here is that we don't have a garage, or even permanent power to the shed, so putting her on the battery tender is a little tough, but both she and Blue have their own battery pigtails hanging out of them, and their batteries get to sleep inside the house in the winter.   This is also why I expected her battery to last more than 2 years, almost to the day.

[ZenMan]

Don't get frustrated, Stormi! Ya gotta learn to enjoy this kinda stuff!  

Think of it as a challenge... matching your wits against the gremlins.... a mechanical chess game. Remember, every time you fix a problem like this you learn something valuable. Next thing you know, you'll be the one giving the answers on the board instead of asking the questions!  

While I'm capable of the troubleshooting, I hate it.  I hate that I have to do it all the time with her.  Sometimes, I like to have quality time with her, and you know.... ride.  But I figure out more than my fair share of the problems, and usually post them for posterity's sake.  ( Maybe you just don't hang out in the B4 forum enough ;))  I rarely get beat by a machine, but when I do,.. it's almost always Dita.

My apologies... I didn't mean to infer that you weren't capable!

I was just saying that it's better on one's health to approach things positively... as I found out when I started taking my blood pressure meds.

Believe me, my toolboxes are covered with dents from slinging wrenches at it. Just when you think you get something beat, another quirk pops up. I had to learn to approach things as a game, and look forward to the challenge, rathr then dreading it. It was easier doing that at work because I got paid for it... harder to work on your own stuff.

You're right, I hardly ever go into the 400 forum... are you sure you want me in there nosing around?  

[Russtang]

Here's the other question then... is there no way to have a more powerful battery with the small footprint required for the motorcycle? Sort of a beer keg in a beer hat size? (Figured that was an analogy all the guys would get ;) )

Absolutely.  There are tons of different rechargeable battery chemistries out there.  Our bikes and cars almost always use lead acid batteries.

Nickel Cadmium (NiCad) has about 150% the energy density of lead-acid.

Nickel Metal Hydride (Nimh) has about 200%.

And Lithium ion / Lithium polymer (LiIon/LiPo) have about 300% the energy density of Lead Acid.

All have their advantages/disadvantages.  Weight, price, discharge rates, discharge cycles, ability for deep voltage discharge, etc...

The disadvantage of lead acid is it's the lowest on the energy density scale of the above.  It's also heavy compared to the others.

The advantages are pretty big however.  It's cheap.  Easy to manufacture, long shelf life (store forever...just add electrolyte).  It has a low internal resistance, so it has the ability to source a lot of current (amps) very quickly.  This is handy when turning starter motors which can pull hundreds of amps.  It is the easiest to charge.  And it's been around forever.

The manufacturers are pretty smart and size batteries to fit all reasonable applications plus a little margin if you want to add some extra lights or grip warmers.  There usually shouldn't be a need to change chemistry to gain extra capacity.

The only REAL reason I see to replace your car or bike's battery with a different chemistry would be for weight savings.  You would most likely have to rework your charging and potentially your starting system.  You would also have to spend more on the new batteries and make a custom pack.

[Russtang]

While I'm capable of the troubleshooting, I hate it.  I hate that I have to do it all the time with her.  Sometimes, I like to have quality time with her, and you know.... ride.  But I figure out more than my fair share of the problems, and usually post them for posterity's sake.  ( Maybe you just don't hang out in the B4 forum enough ;))  I rarely get beat by a machine, but when I do,.. it's almost always Dita.

OMG, I feel your pain there.  Yesterday was the first time in months I got to ride my bandit after finally getting it to run reliably.  

It never idled well since I bought it nearly 2 years ago.  After it failed smog, it was carbs off/cleaning & o-rings/on/balance/off/turn air screws/on/balance/off/turn the air screws again...ad infinitum.  Constantly chasing a lean condition until I finally cranked the air screws out 3 turns.  Another carb balance, and it passed smog with flying colors.  Idling smoothly around 1400 with no miss anymore!   Snif, snif.  Brought a tear to my eye.  

Felt so nice to ride again!  Perfect riding weather too.  Highs in the low 100's  

[stormi]

My apologies... I didn't mean to infer that you weren't capable!

I didn't think you were.  I would think you're well aware of the truth of that matter. ;)

I was just saying that it's better on one's health to approach things positively... as I found out when I started taking my blood pressure meds.

Believe me, my toolboxes are covered with dents from slinging wrenches at it. Just when you think you get something beat, another quirk pops up. I had to learn to approach things as a game, and look forward to the challenge, rathr then dreading it. It was easier doing that at work because I got paid for it... harder to work on your own stuff.

I think what's getting me is the fact that she can come up with "tricks" faster than I can fix them some days.  I do wonder of some of it comes from letting her sit 6 months of the year.  They're really not meant to do that, they're meant to be working.

And of course, I can live without getting beat up all the time too.  I have 16 cuts, bruises, and scrapes, and one blister from all of this.  My fingers are sore from weaving them into tight spots to try to turn or grasp things that I can't get tools in there for, and somehow both thumbs have the skin separated from the fingernails at the tips.  This looks totally awesome to a new client when you hold out your hand to shake theirs and they notice that your hand is all red and torn up, and your fingernails have grease under them. They start wondering if you've come to fix their car, or train them on their computers...

You're right, I hardly ever go into the 400 forum... are you sure you want me in there nosing around?  

Well,.. I dunno,... I might have to warn the mods that you're coming ,...  

[stormi]

Absolutely.  There are tons of different rechargeable battery chemistries out there.  Our bikes and cars almost always use lead acid batteries.

It seems to me that we'd benefit from non-spillable, and higher powered batteries on a bike.  Of course the NiMH and Lithium also has the problem of being good for only so many charges... that's not good for something that's constantly being charged.