Author Topic: Bandit, Crotch Rocket  (Read 13827 times)

Offline pmackie

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Bandit, Crotch Rocket
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2007, 01:17:13 PM »
Hey Banditone1250s...I'll take a short stab at this.

Engines tuned for racetracks are usually tuned for max horsepower. Since torque is the work done and horsepower is the rate of doing work, a bike that creates its torque at higher rpms results in more horsepower. Higher horsepower tends to result in more acceleration and top speed.

A "detuned" bike, usually means the manuafacturer has altered things like cam lift and duration, carb or fuel injection throat size, length of intake, size and length of exhaust, etc. to make the max torque occur at a lower rpm, meaning LESS horsepower. Why? It make the bike way easier to ride in most situations. Better low rpm acceleration, or better roll on performance. Emissions can play a role as well.

Specifically to the 1st, 2nd and 2.5 SACS engine Bandits, they are basically altered GSXR 750 and 1100 engines origionally designed in the mid to late 1980's. On this site you can find lots of guys who have "retuned" their Bandits to make more horsepower. One of the easiest and largest benifits has come from "de-resticting" the intake and exhaust and perfecting the jetting. On either the 600 or 1200 this tends to add torque across most of the rpm range, meaning more horsepower everywhere.

For guys that want even more horsepower, it is usually easier to get by moving the max torque up the rpm band. For example, after a pipe and jet kit, a change to different cams in the 1200 allows it to rev higher, usually in conjunction with additional airbox/air filter mods to allow more air in.

Other ways to make more power are:
1. Increase displacement, usually via a big bore kit. Larger engine usually means more torque, espcially at lower rpms.
2. Higher compression, via different pistons. Bigger bang can result in higher torque.
3. Porting & valves. Smoothing/reshaping intake/exhaust ports can decrease friction/increase air flow. Special angles on the valve face/seats can do the same. Larger valves can allow more air in/out.

For your 1250 Water cooled, the empirical data is not there yet, though coming fast. Typically an lower restriction exhaust combined with adjusting the fuel mixture will result in more high rpm power. This will be done with a "chip" or software change to alter the fuel injection. May or may not need a change to the air filter/air box. Don't yet know if this will change any of the existing low rpm characteristics, but with the massive torque rise at low rpm of the Bandit 1250, you likely would not notice a slight shift.

I hope this helps...
Paul
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Leo Vince Ex & Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
32 years in the Fuel/lubes industry(Retired)

Offline drewpy_dawg

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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2007, 01:23:45 PM »
Here's a fun one...Once upon a time ago I was considering a SV 650.  I about choked when I saw the insurance for a NAKED SV...it was 5600 a year.  I was 26 w/ no tickets or accidents at the same time.  A Duccati Monster 600 was 700 bucks a year to insure.  The SV was classified as a sports bike while the Monster was considered a standard by progressive.  Figure that one out.  I'm still baffled to this day by that.  My Bandit, even if it was new, with 2x the CC's and a fairing would have cost more on the Monster side of that equation as well.
2002 Bandit 1200s - Blue - Holeshot exhaust, pod filters and dynojet stage 3 jet kit and carbon fiber look accessories.  
2006 Hyosung Avitar GV-650 (wife's bike) -Silver- bone stock (and pretty darn fun to ride)

Offline stormi

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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2007, 01:41:19 PM »
Whew! Paul, You just saved me a lot of typing. :grin:

I'll add two things here:

the "detuning" of our engines also serves to prolong the life of our engines, all things being equal.  Our engine won't take as much stress ( high revving, etc) as a sport tuned bike.  More horsepower usually equates to higher stress on engine parts.

Bandit1250s, Not knowing what your level is with engines, I'll also make a small parallel for you.  The cams and camchain are essentially the same as your timing chain in a car.  So, in effect, the cams in the bandit are creating different timing than it's gsxr 1100 counterpart would have, thus creating the detuning.  This also changes the fuel requirement, hence the diffferent carbs, or fuel mapping with the FI systems. Different sparking needs changes the requirement for fuel.
stormi

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Offline Barbarian

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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2007, 01:42:34 PM »
Quote from: "skyrider"
Quote from: "Barbarian"
The Official Quebec Sportsbike Checklist.

Muffler directed toward the rear and upward;


...as opposed to it pointing forward?  


Nah, as opposed to pointing toward the rear and level like a cruiser. Or ending halfway like the Versys

The SAAQ came out with its 'final' list. Scroll down on this page
Looks like they removed the SV1000.
2006 650 Bandit S w/ABS

Offline drewpy_dawg

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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2007, 02:18:30 PM »
Why doesn't Canada just make everyone get a Motorcycle endorsement regardless of when they got their license.  That would be easier and cheaper for everyone involved.
2002 Bandit 1200s - Blue - Holeshot exhaust, pod filters and dynojet stage 3 jet kit and carbon fiber look accessories.  
2006 Hyosung Avitar GV-650 (wife's bike) -Silver- bone stock (and pretty darn fun to ride)

Offline r_outsider

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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2007, 11:15:41 PM »
Quote from: "drewpy_dawg"
Why doesn't Canada just make everyone get a Motorcycle endorsement regardless of when they got their license.  That would be easier and cheaper for everyone involved.



Because that would make perfect sense! When was the last time politicians had that?

Offline banditone1250s

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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2007, 12:37:10 AM »
pmackie, Thanks for the info but in all honesty, I have to tell you that you know a whole lot more about that stuff than I do. You were way above my head with all that stuff. Howver, I am interested in what you think because you obviously know what you are talking about.

  Let me ask, what, in your opinion would be the best thing to get a little more H.P. out of my Bandit 1250s? Hell, I  wouldn't mind running it up to around 140 RWHP. Not that it doesn't have enough, I would just like a little extra if ya know what I mean. Does the fuel injection need to be adjusted when I change the can? I am thinking about changing to a "Two Brother's" slip on and doing what ever I need to do to the fuel injection if any thing.
 
  I was also told that I could put the Gixzer cams in it and it would run more like a gixzer 1000. Do I want that? I am also told that this would cost around a $1000.00!!! I love my Bandit and I want it run with the other top dogs. What is your opinion about getting a "chip" put in it? I have heard that this could also make a great deal of difference too.. I am open to any ideas and thoughts that you  may have. Please keep talking to me about this because I do want to do something and I do not want to do the "wrong" thing....Banditone1250s.... :motorsmile:
There is a thin line between fear and respect...feel free to drift across it every now and then...

Offline drewpy_dawg

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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2007, 01:14:37 AM »
Not to barge in...but I can tell you what I know from my last bike, and part of the reason why I sold it.  (I had a 06 FZ6).  With Fuel Injection, you will most likely have to alter things when you change the exhaust.  It MIGHT run ok and this is something hopefully someone can answer definitively.  With my FZ, due to the exhaust's location, all the aftermarket stuff was expensive to begin with, harder to find and not geared to just making noise but to produce more power.  You have to alter things to make that power.  The solution is a Power Commander.  Its a ~300 dollar piggie back computer that alters the fuel/air to optimize your other mod's.  If others have done the dyno work, then you just download their program into the box and you are good.  If no one has (such as on a new bike like the B12.5) for the exhaust you are considering then you get to do that part too.  One of my considerations going w/ the B12 was that it WAS carburated because I had done the math on a power commander for the FZ and it didn't seem worth it, especially on that bike where there was maybe 10-15 hp, all up in the stratosphere to be had.  There are alot of upsides to FI, don't get me wrong, but easily and cheaply making more power isn't one of them.  All my complaining about dropping almost 800 on a tune-up/valve adjustment and stage 3 kit would me amplified if it was just 800 for the pipe and P.C.
Drewpy
2002 Bandit 1200s - Blue - Holeshot exhaust, pod filters and dynojet stage 3 jet kit and carbon fiber look accessories.  
2006 Hyosung Avitar GV-650 (wife's bike) -Silver- bone stock (and pretty darn fun to ride)

Offline pmackie

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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2007, 02:07:20 AM »
banditone1250s
Quote
in your opinion would be the best thing to get a little more H.P. out of my Bandit 1250s? Hell, I wouldn't mind running it up to around 140 RWHP.


Holy smokes!!! I'm only running about 65 RWHP (at 10,500 rpm). You got at least that from 4000 rpm on up...

But seriously, you would need to completely revise the engine to get up to 140 RWHP, and you would end up completely different power charateristics if you did. I would suggest you start with a couple of simple things. Just like the 1200, it looks like there is about 10 HP (full 10%) with a change to the exhaust, intake and fuel mixture. A good way for most of us to get this, is to go to someone like Dale Walker's Holeshot. (http://www.holeshot.com/)

Dale has a long history for working with the Bandit platform, and is one of the early guys with some data. It looks like he has a slip-on exhaust mod, Air filter/air box mod and Fuel Injection "chip" mod all designed to work together. Have a look at this web site and see if it looks like it is for you.

No question, that things like a "Power Commander" FI mapping system have more outright potential for an experienced user, but you also need to know what you're doing to tune it properly.

This is NOT an endorsement of Holeshot per se, as I have not used his services myself (although I'm thinking about it), but many guys here have had good success with his products, and he DOES have an wealth of experience with the Bandit engines.

My basic recommendation is to ensure the suspension and brakes are upgraded prior to more power. There is usually more speed to be had by ensuring you can use all the existing power before you decide you need more.
Paul
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Leo Vince Ex & Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
32 years in the Fuel/lubes industry(Retired)

Offline leedogg

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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2007, 01:47:01 PM »
well right now- Holeshot has a slip on, o2 simm, and "box' that is good for 115rwhp(up from 104 stock)  tq is also up all the way across the board. now that is ~700 bucks...I am waiting for the headers to come out myself to do it all at once.
1996 Trans Am- Stock as a rock - NOT.  408rwhp/397rwtq.
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2007 Bandit 1250S - first ever bike- I love it!

Offline GETFURIOUS

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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2007, 04:10:46 PM »
Quote from: "leedogg"
True- for the above..BUT  regular people classify bikes as Crotch Rockets or Cruisers or Tourers.

of those three- our mostly matches the CR.  My dad calls mine a crotch rocket...well more like- "he went off and bought a damn cratch rocket!"

Only when you get into the motorcycle community do people rally know the different classes of bikes.I know that down here in the south,  all the sportbikes and naked sport bikes and called a crotch rocket.  Any thing with a fairing(even half fairing) is considered a sportbike.  The Standard class of bike has largely disappeared from the USA- we just don't get them.


WHEN PEOPLE ASK ABOUT MY BANDIT.....

I ALWAYS TELL THEM THAT THE BIKE IS A "STANDARD".....

I ALSO EXPLAIN WHAT A STANDARD IS.....

I NEVER TELL ANYONE THAT MY BIKE IS A CROCH ROCKET.....

BUT I ALSO TELL THEM THAT I HAVE NO PROBLEM RIDING WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE CROCH ROCKETS.....THEY DO THEIR THING AND I DO MINE.....
2001 BANDIT 1200S - MY DOCTOR ALWAYS SAYS, TAKE A SHOT OF B-12 AND CALL ME IN THE MORNING!  I LOVE MY DOCTOR!

W-T-B - AFTERMARKET CHROME/POLISHED WHEELS-LIKE THESE-http://www.exoticsportbike.com/star2.htm

Offline Dave 02 1200

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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2007, 05:43:56 PM »
A standard motorcycle indeed!  

One of the best things about the 1200 Bandit is that it is a "sleeper" and it does not carry "sociological baggage" like a Harley, GSXR, V-Max, BMW, etc., each with its own reputation and stereotype.

My naked 1200 runs "below the radar" of most people who have absolutely no idea what it is or what it can do.

Best of all, my Bandit does not impose the expectation that I should conform to a brand/model-based stereotype or to be like the other riders of the same kind of bike.
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Offline leedogg

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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2007, 06:07:58 PM »
I agree Dave....but add the half fairing(which is all us USA people get) and it automatically gets lumped into sportbike.
1996 Trans Am- Stock as a rock - NOT.  408rwhp/397rwtq.
2004 GMC Yukon XL - The family/Trans Am hauler
1992 Silverado - Future tow vehicle.
2007 Bandit 1250S - first ever bike- I love it!

Offline GETFURIOUS

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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2007, 12:55:55 AM »
Quote from: "Dave 02 1200"
A standard motorcycle indeed!  

One of the best things about the 1200 Bandit is that it is a "sleeper" and it does not carry "sociological baggage" like a Harley, GSXR, V-Max, BMW, etc., each with its own reputation and stereotype.

My naked 1200 runs "below the radar" of most people who have absolutely no idea what it is or what it can do.

Best of all, my Bandit does not impose the expectation that I should conform to a brand/model-based stereotype or to be like the other riders of the same kind of bike.

I TOTALLY AGREE.....
2001 BANDIT 1200S - MY DOCTOR ALWAYS SAYS, TAKE A SHOT OF B-12 AND CALL ME IN THE MORNING!  I LOVE MY DOCTOR!

W-T-B - AFTERMARKET CHROME/POLISHED WHEELS-LIKE THESE-http://www.exoticsportbike.com/star2.htm

Offline chupacabra

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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2007, 06:46:56 AM »
I had a guy say " you ride a CROCH ROCKET? Oh wait it has a steel frame... thats not a croch rocket!" HaHa I just looked at him and said "WOW"
Dave . . . San Diego, California
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