FYI - Dead short causes main fuse to blow

[stormi]

Recording this for posterity.

This actually happened on July 13, while the Alley was down.  I recorded it on my own website, and am copying and pasting here.

Got a call yesterday from the other half. He told me that Dita had broken down on the way to work. He'd been riding, then suddenly there were no lights, nothing.

Thinking it was the regulator rectifier,... again, I went out to the shed and got the spare RR and the loading ramp. We arranged for me to pick him up after work and we would go get her.

We brought her home, cos neither of us felt like messing around with her in the rain, and checked a few of the obvious things.

Battery Level - 12.25V A little low, but not low enough to cause the bike to lose -all- power. OK,.. likely not charging system related.

Check the fuses. Main (25A) fuse was blown. Hmm,.. what would have caused that? Put the spare in, and she blew it as soon as it -touched- the fuse box, we didn't even manage to get it inserted!

This would indicate that the short is with something that has a live power feed to it even without ignition power. That should narrow the field a little.

Did I mention that I -hate- electrical problems! It's midnight by now, so we head inside. The other half to bed, me to research on the net.

Boy, am I missing my banditalley.com right now.

5am I finally give up, I have a list of things to try in the morning.

I found some really good troubleshooting tips while surfing last night, so I might as well mention them.

1. If you're blowing the main fuse, try removing all fuses, except the main and see if the bike will run without blowing the fuse.

If it does, then try adding the fuses back in, one at a time til it pops the fuse again. (try fuse in slot 1, then try to recreate the problem, if it doesn't, remove that fuse, and try one in slot 2, etc etc.)

If you insert a fuse and it or the main one blows, check the wiring diagram to find out what that fuse protects. This will give you a place to start troubleshooting.

If none of the fuses seems to cause the main to blow, put all the fuses back in, and consult your wiring diagram in your service manual. It should indicate what is protected by which fuse.


2. Make sure that you use a known good fuse, test it for resistance before you use it.


3. Do NOT use a fuse that's rated higher than the proper fuse in the fusebox. This is a good way to burn down your bike! (I already knew this, but it bears repeating.)

4. Do not use a paper clip, piece of tinfoil, or any other item that is not a fuse to bridge the fuse link. See above, you can and likely will burn the bike down.

5. Always carry spares fuses, even more than what the bike holds by default. This can make the difference between a great ride, and a huge tow bill.

Ok,.. back to the nightmare at hand.

It appears according to the wiring diagram, ( you do have a copy of your service manual, right?) that the fusebox and the starter relay are live when there isn't ignition power.

Additionally, the RR and the ignition switch appear to be the only things "fused" by the so-called "main" fuse. Interesting.

Ok, so, by process of elimination, I likely have a problem with the RR or the ignition switch, or something between one of these and the battery. (i.e. a bare wire, etc.)

Since the RR has been a problem on this bike before, I opt to check it first. In my case, when the RR failed on the Bandit before, I replaced it with a Honda CB400 RR. This meant that the wiring had to be "kludged" a little, so of course, I peeled this apart first.

As I peeled the electrical tape off the "kludge", I felt water on my hands. (She'd been ridden in the rain a few days earlier)I was suddenly sure that I was on the right track. I exposed the wiring, and found that it had slipped apart a little. This coupled with the water had likely caused a dead short. To test my theory, I disconnected the RR from the bike.

This is something you can do as a troubleshooting test. Disconnect the power leads ( i.e connector containing the black and red leads on a Suzuki, or the green and red leads on a Honda, other bikes of course may be different.) and if you want, the stator leads (connector containing 3 yellow leads) as well, for good measure. Replace the fuse. Did it pop? If not, Now start the bike.

In a pinch, the bike can be run like this for a short time. As the regulator is not attached, your battery is not charging. Essentially, this becomes a total loss system. It can be enough to get you home in an emergency. Be sure to charge that battery up as soon as you get home, and fix your regulator problem immediately! Or you will start to destroy parts of your charging system.

If it still pops the fuse with the regulator rectifier disconnected, your problem lies elsewhere. (Good second place to look would of course be the ignition switch.)

In my case, the bike started and ran. YAY!! Ok,.. as you can see above, the regulator was not faulty, but the wiring was loose and caused a problem. So, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, it could be something simple.

I re-wired the RR to the bike. I removed the connector that I had retained from her original wiring, and plugged the blades from the RR into the female ends. This time I used shrink tube and a lot more electrical tape. I also hid the connection behind the battery, so hopefully it will be a little more resilient against rain.

In my defence, it did last a year before it failed.

I looked closely at the original connector, and it appears to have "worn" the wall between the ground and live wires down to nothing in a spot or two, add to this a little water, and you have yourself a little fuse popping party.

Make sure you charge the battery up totally after all this testing, and for good measure, maybe run everything through this test: Click Me

Make sure that the battery is fully charged first though, or you may get unexpected results.

Now, what are you doing here still? Take the girl for a ride! Celebrate the fact that she did exactly what she was supposed to. She blew the fuse instead of burning down or frying the wire harness.

[Slider]

Well done and very well explained. The last time I remember anything like this was in the Yukon a few kilometers from the Alaska border in the dark, (late August when there is Some night). It was pouring rain & I was lying on my back in the water & mud, trouble shooting electrics on a car/trailer system. This which was intermitently blowing fuses like crazy. It turned out to be a missing gromet where wires passed thru sheet metal and the insulation had worn thru due to vibration. I carried lots of stuff so managed a fix by splitting some plastic tubing, sliding it over each wire and glorping it all with silicone rubber.

The curse of bikes is that you can't carry much repair stuff on trips.

[stormi]

Well done and very well explained. The last time I remember anything like this was in the Yukon a few kilometers from the Alaska border in the dark, (late August when there is Some night). It was pouring rain & I was lying on my back in the water & mud, trouble shooting electrics on a car/trailer system. This which was intermitently blowing fuses like crazy. It turned out to be a missing gromet where wires passed thru sheet metal and the insulation had worn thru due to vibration. I carried lots of stuff so managed a fix by splitting some plastic tubing, sliding it over each wire and glorping it all with silicone rubber.

The curse of bikes is that you can't carry much repair stuff on trips.

Man! That would have sucked.  How long did it take you to find it?

Thanks!!  

I truly believe that with a bike, the best thing to do is carry a flashlight (I have an LED/Xenon one that I picked up at Princess Auto, it lives in my tank bag.), some electrical tape and a bunch of fuses (besides the attached tool kit of course) and maybe a tire repair kit.  

Most other things, you won't be able fix anyway, unless you're carrying enough to need a trailer.  (The exception of course being if you have a known trouble part, then of course carry a spare, within reason, i.e. CDI or RR.)

If it's shorting and you find out why,.. tie it off or tape it and keep going.   That's about the best case scenario in some cases.  Of course, hopefully it's not something that disables you completely.

[Slider]

Well done and very well explained. The last time I remember anything like this was in the Yukon a few kilometers from the Alaska border in the dark, (late August when there is Some night). It was pouring rain & I was lying on my back in the water & mud, trouble shooting electrics on a car/trailer system. This which was intermitently blowing fuses like crazy. It turned out to be a missing gromet where wires passed thru sheet metal and the insulation had worn thru due to vibration. I carried lots of stuff so managed a fix by splitting some plastic tubing, sliding it over each wire and glorping it all with silicone rubber.

The curse of bikes is that you can't carry much repair stuff on trips.

Man! That would have sucked.  How long did it take you to find it?

Thanks!!  

I truly believe that with a bike, the best thing to do is carry a flashlight (I have an LED/Xenon one that I picked up at Princess Auto, it lives in my tank bag.), some electrical tape and a bunch of fuses (besides the attached tool kit of course) and maybe a tire repair kit.  

Most other things, you won't be able fix anyway, unless you're carrying enough to need a trailer.  (The exception of course being if you have a known trouble part, then of course carry a spare, within reason, i.e. CDI or RR.)

If it's shorting and you find out why,.. tie it off or tape it and keep going.   That's about the best case scenario in some cases.  Of course, hopefully it's not something that disables you completely.

I don't remember how long it took to find it... or even how I did it. I didn't even own a multimeter in those days but seem to remember I had a continuity light. We spent 2 weeks in Dawson city. I recall suddenly realizing that although we carried an assortment of lights, lanterns, watches and even an alarm clock...      that NONE of them had any relevance. Time didn't really matter since it Never got dark in June or July. We were on the road over 3 months and went thru 13 tires on the trailer. I recall buying a 10 pound salmon from the Indians for $2... well it was the 70's. Tried to give some away but nobody would take it... all fed up with salmon already.

Good kit you mention above. I have been carrying 4 spare plugs since the Bandit 12 type are so rare most dealers don't carry 'em. Since the chance of so many failures is unlikely, I think I'll drop it back to 2 used ones the next time I change plugs. The possible exception would be if you have Champion plugs. I recall having 2 of 4 fail within a very short period in my last Yamaha XS11. I junked them all and went back to NGK.
 Something else is an assortment of bungee cords for binding large things on. Also works if you crash or shed bolts and are trying to keep parts of the bike from clanging or deserting.
 Also a tiny bottle of dish soap, paper towels for when your hands are black from mucking about anywhere... you gotta find your own water. Also works for the hail of bugs we get here. Thuroughtly wet the towl with or without the dishsoap... lay it over your visor... leave for 15 minutes. They come off with one wipe and NO scratches and you've got something to throw in tonights soup pot.

[stormi]

I don't remember how long it took to find it... or even how I did it. I didn't even own a multimeter in those days but seem to remember I had a continuity light. We spent 2 weeks in Dawson city. I recall suddenly realizing that although we carried an assortment of lights, lanterns, watches and even an alarm clock...      that NONE of them had any relevance. Time didn't really matter since it Never got dark in June or July. We were on the road over 3 months and went thru 13 tires on the trailer. I recall buying a 10 pound salmon from the Indians for $2... well it was the 70's. Tried to give some away but nobody would take it... all fed up with salmon already.

Wow,.. sounds like it was a really interesting trip.  13 tires?  How did your body clock do?  Did it mess you up . not having a true night there?

Good kit you mention above. I have been carrying 4 spare plugs since the Bandit 12 type are so rare most dealers don't carry 'em. Since the chance of so many failures is unlikely, I think I'll drop it back to 2 used ones the next time I change plugs. The possible exception would be if you have Champion plugs. I recall having 2 of 4 fail within a very short period in my last Yamaha XS11. I junked them all and went back to NGK.
 Something else is an assortment of bungee cords for binding large things on. Also works if you crash or shed bolts and are trying to keep parts of the bike from clanging or deserting.

What sort of fuses does the B12 take?  Hmm,.. I'm trying to remember what brand of plugs are in either bike,.. but I don't think either are Champion.   Are they still a problem, or was this a while ago?   I have one of those cargo nets that I have on the bike  all the time.  I find that it encourages me to carry the stupidest things on the bike.   I went looking for a "drawer unit" for the bathroom the other day.  Yup,.. you guessed it, I made it fit under the bungies.  It hung off the back of the bike by about a foot, but it made it home.    I'm guessing that I got a couple of looks on the way too.  Brought a set of "nesting hanging baskets for the kitchen home the next day.  
 

Also a tiny bottle of dish soap, paper towels for when your hands are black from mucking about anywhere... you gotta find your own water. Also works for the hail of bugs we get here. Thuroughtly wet the towl with or without the dishsoap... lay it over your visor... leave for 15 minutes. They come off with one wipe and NO scratches and you've got something to throw in tonights soup pot.

Some of that "no wash" hand sanitiser would be great for the first mess.   I like the towel trick.  You had me til the soup pot ... ewww.

[Swamp Rat]

A used dryer sheet such as "Bounce" works even better for bug removal. Just dampen the sheet and wipe them off.

Stormi...I saw you mentioned a web site but I didn't see a link. Keeping it  private or simply an oversite?

[stormi]

A used dryer sheet such as "Bounce" works even better for bug removal. Just dampen the sheet and wipe them off.

Stormi...I saw you mentioned a web site but I didn't see a link. Keeping it  private or simply an oversite?

It has to be used?  to get the film off it I guess?  I like the idea of it.  I can keep one in my pack, and everything will smell nice too.  I read a while ago too that mosquitos don't like bounce either.  yet another compelling reason to carry it.

I didn't post the link, cos I didn't know how relevant it was.  
It's here  
It's not really ready, I'm contemplating using a CMS style on the site, but everytime I get to coding what I want, I decide I don't like it anymore before I finish.  It's pretty much a "right side of the brain fighting with the left side" syndrome.

[Slider]

I don't remember how long it took to find it... or even how I did it. I didn't even own a multimeter in those days but seem to remember I had a continuity light. We spent 2 weeks in Dawson city. I recall suddenly realizing that although we carried an assortment of lights, lanterns, watches and even an alarm clock...      that NONE of them had any relevance. Time didn't really matter since it Never got dark in June or July. We were on the road over 3 months and went thru 13 tires on the trailer. I recall buying a 10 pound salmon from the Indians for $2... well it was the 70's. Tried to give some away but nobody would take it... all fed up with salmon already.

Wow,.. sounds like it was a really interesting trip.  13 tires?  How did your body clock do?  Did it mess you up . not having a true night there?

Good kit you mention above. I have been carrying 4 spare plugs since the Bandit 12 type are so rare most dealers don't carry 'em. Since the chance of so many failures is unlikely, I think I'll drop it back to 2 used ones the next time I change plugs. The possible exception would be if you have Champion plugs. I recall having 2 of 4 fail within a very short period in my last Yamaha XS11. I junked them all and went back to NGK.
 Something else is an assortment of bungee cords for binding large things on. Also works if you crash or shed bolts and are trying to keep parts of the bike from clanging or deserting.

What sort of fuses does the B12 take?  Hmm,.. I'm trying to remember what brand of plugs are in either bike,.. but I don't think either are Champion.   Are they still a problem, or was this a while ago?   I have one of those cargo nets that I have on the bike  all the time.  I find that it encourages me to carry the stupidest things on the bike.   I went looking for a "drawer unit" for the bathroom the other day.  Yup,.. you guessed it, I made it fit under the bungies.  It hung off the back of the bike by about a foot, but it made it home.    I'm guessing that I got a couple of looks on the way too.  Brought a set of "nesting hanging baskets for the kitchen home the next day.  
 

Also a tiny bottle of dish soap, paper towels for when your hands are black from mucking about anywhere... you gotta find your own water. Also works for the hail of bugs we get here. Thuroughtly wet the towl with or without the dishsoap... lay it over your visor... leave for 15 minutes. They come off with one wipe and NO scratches and you've got something to throw in tonights soup pot.

Some of that "no wash" hand sanitiser would be great for the first mess.   I like the towel trick.  You had me til the soup pot ... ewww.

The 13 tires were a tent trailer problem -the itsy bitsy kind die like flies on gravel. The body clock thing seems to stay put. The sun goes down to or slightly under the horizon, in the middle of the "night". Still light enough to read a book outside even in early aug, as I recall. The sun will cook you out of a tent trailer quite early in the AM, though... especially June/July. You get pretty good a trying to predict the morning suns vector and try to snuggle up to tree(s) shade.

I wouldn't worry too much about hanging stuff off the bike. In Asia they would put any of us to shame, eg. 50 loaves of bread on a Yamaha 100cc. The "Towel trick", is true. The soup pot is optional. The other cheap lunch is to leave your visor part way up and drive near the swamp at dusk with your mouth open. Brush afterwards to avoid stares.

You are relatively close to the AlCan highway. It would be a great trip. If you do decide to go, I would be pleased to offer tips.

I'm heading to Quebec to Muskie fish and on to Nova Scotia to camp, next week. I've bought a lot of nifty camp grear... some hiker and some MC type. It's quite an education. Bought a butane lantern... a mistake, I now think. Lotsa light but too thirsty... LED is better, as you pointed out.

[stormi]

The 13 tires were a tent trailer problem -the itsy bitsy kind die like flies on gravel. The body clock thing seems to stay put. The sun goes down to or slightly under the horizon, in the middle of the "night". Still light enough to read a book outside even in early aug, as I recall. The sun will cook you out of a tent trailer quite early in the AM, though... especially June/July. You get pretty good a trying to predict the morning suns vector and try to snuggle up to tree(s) shade.

Still,... 13 tires,.. that's one a week.  That must have made you rethink the idea of the tent trailer?  That would have become costly after a bit.

I wouldn't worry too much about hanging stuff off the bike. In Asia they would put any of us to shame, eg. 50 loaves of bread on a Yamaha 100cc. The "Towel trick", is true. The soup pot is optional. The other cheap lunch is to leave your visor part way up and drive near the swamp at dusk with your mouth open. Brush afterwards to avoid stares.

I think I've seen that many loaves on a bicycle over there. (At least in movies.)  

Yeah, I might be a little more tempted on the marsh lunch, if they could hit my mouth.  I've ended up with welts on my neck from bugs, and the odd time I forget the visor up, I've been hit in the cheekbone and nose.  I think I'll pass on that, and just pack a lunch.  

You are relatively close to the AlCan highway. It would be a great trip. If you do decide to go, I would be pleased to offer tips.

It's not a direction that's I've considered up til now, but it is a distinct possibility in the future.  I will keep this in mind.  

I'm heading to Quebec to Muskie fish and on to Nova Scotia to camp, next week. I've bought a lot of nifty camp grear... some hiker and some MC type. It's quite an education. Bought a butane lantern... a mistake, I now think. Lotsa light but too thirsty... LED is better, as you pointed out.

What the heck is a Muskie fish?  If you have a princess auto near you, they have some great flashlights, and they're very well priced as well.  The thing about the butane too, is that it's fairly volitile too.  I don't like carrying anything potentially explosive when we camp, but at least they're in the back of the truck. ( We have a little butane camp stove that we use when it's raining too much to light a campfire, or if we're not allowed to light a campfire.  I think we've gone through 2 cans in it in the last 7 yrs. )

[Slider]

What the heck is a Muskie fish?  If you have a princess auto near you, they have some great flashlights, and they're very well priced as well.  The thing about the butane too, is that it's fairly volitile too.  I don't like carrying anything potentially explosive when we camp, but at least they're in the back of the truck. ( We have a little butane camp stove that we use when it's raining too much to light a campfire, or if we're not allowed to light a campfire.  I think we've gone through 2 cans in it in the last 7 yrs. )

I have a very similar Butane stove, yet to used. I think the fuel goes further here, since it is used briefly. I'm also carrying a "Frog", which is slang for a little 300 watt coil gizmo that hangs on the side of a cup or small pot when Hydro is available. It really only works for water but I have used it for thin soup. Stew is out, as it would cake & burn on the element.
Muskies are the largest member of the Pike family, eg. Pickerel/Walleye, Pike and aka Muskellunge. Unlike Pike and Pickerel, Muskies are ferocius fighters that grow to be the largest of the group. They also have large choppers to beware of. I landed my largest in a small lake where they never do get very big. Still, an 8+ pounder put a lot of water into the canoe while the other guy was trying to net him. They are a very long fish and must go into the net head first. In the Kawartha Lakes around Peterborough, Muskies get up into the 30's lb area, (if you're lucky).

 I saw a 50+ pound laketrout at Kluane Lake in the Yukon but someone elso caught it. They all seemed to know I was there and ran away. I've caught Lake Trout elsewhere but they didn't fight much.

[stormi]

I have a very similar Butane stove, yet to used. I think the fuel goes further here, since it is used briefly. I'm also carrying a "Frog", which is slang for a little 300 watt coil gizmo that hangs on the side of a cup or small pot when Hydro is available. It really only works for water but I have used it for thin soup. Stew is out, as it would cake & burn on the element.

I think I've seen these.  I had contemplated what the aftermath would be with a "thicker" liquid.  eww.

Muskies are the largest member of the Pike family, eg. Pickerel/Walleye, Pike and aka Muskellunge. Unlike Pike and Pickerel, Muskies are ferocius fighters that grow to be the largest of the group. They also have large choppers to beware of. I landed my largest in a small lake where they never do get very big. Still, an 8+ pounder put a lot of water into the canoe while the other guy was trying to net him. They are a very long fish and must go into the net head first. In the Kawartha Lakes around Peterborough, Muskies get up into the 30's lb area, (if you're lucky).

 I saw a 50+ pound laketrout at Kluane Lake in the Yukon but someone elso caught it. They all seemed to know I was there and ran away. I've caught Lake Trout elsewhere but they didn't fight much.

LOL! As you might have noticed, you've run into a non-fisher folk.  I do think though, that most fish -swim- away,... mostly due to a lack of legs....

 I can't even catch a fish in a stocked pond.  *sigh*  I went to Flintstone park, when I was like 9, and was allowed to "fish" til I caught something.  It took about an hour for me to catch one.  It was a stocked pool.  Apparently Rainbow trout don't like me.  That's the last time that I fished.

[Swamp Rat]

I do quite a bit of camping and Prefer to use Kerosene fueled equiptment. If you are looking at lanterns or flashlights I highly recomend an L.E.D. headlamp such as Petzl or Princeton Tec all of wich are widely available on the great and mighty E-Bay. They allow for hands free illumination as well as an extended battery life and they are small enough to fit in a glove box or under the cycle seat.

[Slider]

I do quite a bit of camping and Prefer to use Kerosene fueled equiptment. If you are looking at lanterns or flashlights I highly recomend an L.E.D. headlamp such as Petzl or Princeton Tec all of wich are widely available on the great and mighty E-Bay. They allow for hands free illumination as well as an extended battery life and they are small enough to fit in a glove box or under the cycle seat.

Thanks for the advice Swamp Rat. I looked into the kerosene lamps at an outfitter, but all seemed outrageously expensive... particularly the multi fuel type. The butane one I got cost me $30.00 and appeared to be easier to get going in wind. I also picked up a cheap aluminum windscreen that gatefolds down to squat and is detachable for size. The bottles are $6 but I guess I can buy a lot of these for the $100+ premium.

My cuz said the same thing about LED headlamps. He figures for a 3x AAA battery type - 10+ hours at full power going downhill to a longer period of moonglow. He also said that regular lights were also needed -I guess since the head type is one person only.

As I see it, my biggest enemy on this trip is heat... as in it's HOT & humid  here now . If I wear road armour, I'll get cooked.