I may buy a squid bike....

[stormi]

So, I test rode a 1999 CBR 600 F4 today. I didn't think it would happen, but it felt more natural than the 919 to me.  

For the last two seasons, I've been trying to "get lower" on the bike.  I've been trying to lay across the tank, and have my arms lower than the typical "standard" bike.

This bike isn't without blemishes.  It's been dropped, and it's got a "Rebuilt" status on the registration.  This means that it's been officially written off, and rebuilt and re-certified.  This may be a problem down the road for selling it.  After it was re-certified, it got dropped again.  It currently requires A front fender, Signal light, Mirror, Front cowl ( the signal light attaches to it) two fork seals, brake pedal.   If we wanted to restore to 100% stock, it could also use a muffler, seat ( tiny little slice in it), lower cowl (I'd repair it rather than replace it)and an alternator cover.

Of note as well, is that my neighbor is a bodyman, and might have the fairings that we need sitting in the attic at his shop...

The only other concern is that there's a gear whine in first gear, and the speedo is -really- off.  I mean 50% off, but the rear sprocket is 2 teeth taller, so I suspect a lot of it comes from there?

So,.. here's the plan.  The other half doesn't have his own bike, he rides Dita to work.

We could buy the bike ( which is about 66% of the price of another one of the same year in the same area), the other half can ride it for the summer, as we fix it, then sell it in the fall, or the spring of next year.   In the meantime, if I decide I truly like the riding position, then we'll sell the 919 and the CBR, and get me a newer cbr that hasn't been so beaten up.  Alternatively, the other half might keep the 919 for himself, and I can look for a newer cbr in better shape.

So,.. here are my questions:

1. How much of a problem is a gear whine likely to be ( all things being equal of course)
2. How likely am I to have a huge problem selling a rebuilt status bike? Will I take a big hit on it because of that status?
3. The speedo thing is likely to be the sprocket?  Or something else?
4.  Is this nuts?  It's not -really- feasible financially, but I can swing it, and it will give me "something  to do" while my business is slow for the summer, and I'm taking time off anyway.

[Red01]

1. Who knows? Depends on what's causing the whine. Is it a natural CBR thing? Could be a bad bearing or gear in the gearbox.

2. I don't know how the supply & demand is for this bike there, but in most area, a rebuilt or salvage title is a huge black mark - unless you can slide it by an unsuspecting buyer... not what anyone with a modicum of integrity would do though.

3. Could be, but 50% for only a 2-tooth change sounds out of line, even taking into consderation most bikes are a little optimistic already. 10-20% would be more in line with a 2-tooth change added into stock error.

4. Personally, I wouldn't go for something like this unless it was 50% of market value or cheaper. Don't forget to factor in what it'll cost to make it presentable and figure what it'll bring you in return. That is if you're considering this as a possible investment, like it sounds like you are.

[stormi]

1. Who knows? Depends on what's causing the whine. Is it a natural CBR thing? Could be a bad bearing or gear in the gearbox.

I'm not sure what's normal on a CBR.  As best I can tell they're all about whine.  The air intake, the exhaust, the spooling up of the engine.    I'm used to quieter.  

I know that the bike shifted really well, and seemed really smooth.  I wouldn't have thought anything was wrong with it if I hadn't heard the whine.

2. I don't know how the supply & demand is for this bike there, but in most area, a rebuilt or salvage title is a huge black mark - unless you can slide it by an unsuspecting buyer... not what anyone with a modicum of integrity would do though.

Exactly why I'm asking.  I want to know ahead of time whether this is going to be a problem of not, because it's something I will disclose immediately, but it also says it on the registration forever now.   I will talk to my dealer today and see if they have anything to say about the supply and demand thing.  I know that there are a lot of them on the road, and the kid that's selling it has been getting tons of calls.  (He doesn't really want to sell it, and gave his parent's number, and they've been inundated with people, but we were persistent in finding out about it and going to see it.  We didn't find out about the status til last night.)

3. Could be, but 50% for only a 2-tooth change sounds out of line, even taking into consderation most bikes are a little optimistic already. 10-20% would be more in line with a 2-tooth change added into stock error.

I thought so too.  I can't think of what else would cause it to be out though.  The speedo reading appears to come off the tranny on this bike, like the 919, as I didn't see anything on the front wheel. Any ideas?

4. Personally, I wouldn't go for something like this unless it was 50% of market value or cheaper. Don't forget to factor in what it'll cost to make it presentable and figure what it'll bring you in return. That is if you're considering this as a possible investment, like it sounds like you are.

I think that I can fix it up for about $500 - $750, using wrecker parts, and the other half has something to ride.  

The other add that I saw that was the 33% higher says "fairings in fair condition", so it may be in almost the same boat, but we haven't seen it.  I will get an actual value from the dealer today.

[Nitro]

Sounds like you're already leery of it. Maybe you could wait a little longer and find one in better shape for around the same price?

[stormi]

Well, I talked to the dealer today.  As it turns out, they sold the bike as used about 3 years ago, and it's been in for service there a couple of times since.

I talked to both the person I know in the service department, she said that the rebuilt title isn't necessarily a problem, as ins companies wrote these things off for fairings.  50% of the new price is the cut off point for ins companies usually, and a racer that works there, and he said the title isn't a problem.  

Both told me that the bike is noisy ( cam chain tensioners are a problem) but bulletproof.

The neighbor is pretty sure he's got the fairings, I'm going to find out tomorrow for sure, I've given him the part numbers.

By my guessitmates, if we leave the pipe, and the alternator cover (just scuffed) and repair the seat cover (¼" slice), we should have $450 into the bike, and the "fair" blackbook on it is exactly the price of the bike and the parts.  Average and clean are another $1k apart each.

Yes, this would be an "investment", because if I decide I have to have a CBR600, it's going to be newer, and FI, so if the value is there, it's worth it to me.  If it's not, it's something I have to think long and hard on.  

The idea is to make a little money on it when we sell it, and ride it for a bit to see if it's what we like.

The thing about finding another one in better shape is that there's no way to "force appreciate" it.  

[B6mick]

Hmmm Hond.......a
Ok every body knows my dislike for the product and for a million different reasons, but mostly because of the lack of help given by Honda (Aust) to shops trying to fix a customers problem. Grrrrrrrrr.
Now Wait for it,
The Hond, honnnnda cbr600 is a damn fine ride.
Shyte I carnt beleive I just wrote that.
The Ministers Last bike before she took over the B6 was the 1st gen cbr600 supersport. Yes it had its problems, the typical charging system blues. Its seems that Honda still has yet to fix this little gremlin. But I have read somewhere that some guy has worked out how to use a Kawasaki reg unit to solve the problem once and for all.
Problems to watch on repaired/written off cbr600, I know this one very well, Simon a friend, had one, and copped a good shunt from the rear. It was repaired at the shop I last wrenched at. With-in 2 months or the thing being put back on the road, the electrical gremlins started. Firstly the power commander started throwing bugs, at the computer, and then fried itself. Replace Power commander, and test all computer modes and sensors. Major bucks. A week later fried power commander, hmm recheck everything including charge system all ok, power commander replaced as a faulty unit.
Now this sorta shyte went on for the best part of 3 months. And its was not until, the computer has replaced, most of the sensors, the complete charging system including the battery, and yet another power commander, all at the same time did the gremlins seem to go away, if memory serves me, this all cost, parts alone well over $6 grand (Aus) nearly the write value of the bike. And of course with no back-up or help from Honda Aust.
With the thing now running he sold it very quickly, and I’m lead to believe the whole thing cost poor Simon a lot of money, as well as the shop, who felt to charge him for time, and time and time, and break down pick-ups and break down pick-ups was all becoming a bit rude.
And it seems that poor Simon, is not the only victim of the cbr600  gremlins, since then I have come across quite a few ex owners, who had the same type of problems after a shunt. And what I mean by problem wasn’t just meant, the bike.  

BEWARE
Foot note both bikes in the my shed are repaired write offs, the Rex and the B6.
 

[stormi]

Hmmm Hond.......a
Ok every body knows my dislike for the product and for a million different reasons, but mostly because of the lack of help given by Honda (Aust) to shops trying to fix a customers problem. Grrrrrrrrr.

Yeah yeah, brand X and all that.   Despite never having bought a bike from a Honda dealer, I have had the best service from them.  I have a good relationship with my regular dealer, and even order a lot of my Suz and KTM parts from them.   A lot of it comes down to the dealer, and how much they're willing to go to bat for you with The big H.

Now Wait for it,
The Hond, honnnnda cbr600 is a damn fine ride.
Shyte I carnt beleive I just wrote that.

That's what everyone keeps telling me.  I like the fit and finish of the 919 vs the B4, and the B6 I sat on on the showroom floor.   And this CBR, despite having been crashed twice still has all of it's fairing sitting tight and flush.  Even the two wrecked ones.  

The Ministers Last bike before she took over the B6 was the 1st gen cbr600 supersport. Yes it had its problems, the typical charging system blues. Its seems that Honda still has yet to fix this little gremlin. But I have read somewhere that some guy has worked out how to use a Kawasaki reg unit to solve the problem once and for all.

That would be a 88ish CBR?  My dad has one of those, he seems to love it.  He practically jumped for joy when I told him that we were looking at one.  Interestingly enough, I "worked out" my RR problem on the B4 by putting a Honda CB400 RR on it.  Been going strong for more than 2 years!  I think that all of the manufacturers had trouble with the RRs over the years.

Problems to watch on repaired/written off cbr600, I know this one very well, Simon a friend, had one, and copped a good shunt from the rear. It was repaired at the shop I last wrenched at. With-in 2 months or the thing being put back on the road, the electrical gremlins started. Firstly the power commander started throwing bugs, at the computer, and then fried itself. Replace Power commander, and test all computer modes and sensors. Major bucks. A week later fried power commander, hmm recheck everything including charge system all ok, power commander replaced as a faulty unit.
Now this sorta shyte went on for the best part of 3 months. And its was not until, the computer has replaced, most of the sensors, the complete charging system including the battery, and yet another power commander, all at the same time did the gremlins seem to go away, if memory serves me, this all cost, parts alone well over $6 grand (Aus) nearly the write value of the bike. And of course with no back-up or help from Honda Aust.

What sort of get off was it?  This looks like a slide to me, and not even a hard one, just enough to rash a few parts.  The first one, when the bike earned it's "rebuilt' status doesn't -seem- to have been a bad one.  I think we also get lucky in that this is one of 2 years of F4 that got carbs rather than FI.  Lots less computer interference.

Was this bike still on warranty?  That power commander sure isn't OEM equipment, so they technically could have denied him warranty based on that... though a dealer that one has a good relationship with likely wouldn't...
 

With the thing now running he sold it very quickly, and I’m lead to believe the whole thing cost poor Simon a lot of money, as well as the shop, who felt to charge him for time, and time and time, and break down pick-ups and break down pick-ups was all becoming a bit rude.

That is a real shame.  I don't blame him for selling it, but I feel for the poor slob that ended up with it too.

And it seems that poor Simon, is not the only victim of the cbr600  gremlins, since then I have come across quite a few ex owners, who had the same type of problems after a shunt. And what I mean by problem wasn’t just meant, the bike.  

I think this is a risk with any crashed bikes ( or cars for that matter.)  After my firebird was stolen, it's always had a few gremlins, despite changing all the parts that were wrecked.  I won't be dealing with my dealer on this one, so I'm not concerned about that aspect of it, and it's looking more and more like we're going to try to turn this one around pretty quickly, and see if we can't put the money into a newer one, or something else.  I still have til tomorrow aft to decide though.

BEWARE
Foot note both bikes in the my shed are repaired write offs, the Rex and the B6.
 

I think if you have a bit of mechanical knowledge, you can find some great deals in an ins write off.  This has been the first time I've been tempted to take one on myself, and I'm lucky in that it's technically not a write off (was crashed then re-certified, then low-sided and not fixed.), so I don't have to go through the re-cert process right now.  It's pretty much easy parts replacement.

[B6mick]

That would be a 88ish CBR? My dad has one of those, he seems to love it. He practically jumped for joy when I told him that we were looking at one.  Interestingly enough, I "worked out" my RR problem on the B4 by putting a Honda CB400 RR on it. Been going strong for more than 2 years! I think that all of the manufacturers had trouble with the RRs over the years

.

Yes indeed somewhere in there give or take a couple of years. Shhhh dont tell no-one, but I rode it more than a couple of ttimes before it got turned into "pink bits".
After it came out of the shed of creation pink, I just couldn't bring myself to ride it, or at least admitting to riding it. But having said that there was times on the B6 that I could not keep up with the Hond.......hond. And on couple of rides the minister and swapped I even had fun, shhhh.

What sort of get off was it? This looks like a slide to me, and not even a hard one, just enough to rash a few parts. The first one, when the bike earned it's "rebuilt' status doesn't -seem- to have been a bad one. I think we also get lucky in that this is one of 2 years of F4 that got carbs rather than FI. Lots less computer interference.

Was this bike still on warranty? That power commander sure isn't OEM equipment, so they technically could have denied him warranty based on that... though a dealer that one has a good relationship with likely wouldn't...

Simon's get off. A simple one standing at a roundabout and being rearended. Basic damage. rear body work exhaust can, Lwr right fair paint handle bar end and brake lever. Not a big one at all. Frame however was still checked for straightness. Bike was well out of warranty, but Honda certainly was not forthcoming with any information or technical advice in helping solve, this very very costly problem. In fact we ended up finding a certain gentleman, who makes a soul living from the misgivings of honda (aust) who did supply all the needed codes and readings to finally solve the problems. So good is he Honda dealers use him to fix their problems.

[orionburn]

The forks are what would have me worried. Seems odd that a 99 would be leaking already. Because of going down maybe? I'd try to get the front end up in the air and get them extended as much as possible and check those tubes closely. If it's got a bur on it that could cause for some major headaches. You could replace the seals but may not last really long. Then again if you're not planning on keeping it long it'll be somebody else's problem down the road.

At least with the year finding parts on Ebay shouldn't be too difficult. Personally, if I see "rebuilt" I stop looking right then and there. That's just me, though. Price is a big factor of course. If normal pricing was $4000 and could pick up it for under $2k, then maybe I would. My two cents....

[stormi]

The forks are what would have me worried. Seems odd that a 99 would be leaking already. Because of going down maybe? I'd try to get the front end up in the air and get them extended as much as possible and check those tubes closely. If it's got a bur on it that could cause for some major headaches. You could replace the seals but may not last really long. Then again if you're not planning on keeping it long it'll be somebody else's problem down the road.

It doesn't really take much to blow fork seals.  One really good wheelie with a hard let down can do it.  Or a Rock that pits the fork, or a poor installation.  That said, I agree about the forks.  I've mentioned the same to the other half, and he's promised that we will look it over really carefully before we hand over any money.

Thinking about it though, the front fender needs to be replaced, and it's cracked at the mounting hole for the fork on the right side, and then broken on the left side.  The right fork seal is the one that's been leaking for more than a year, around the time that the bike went down.   Hmmmm....

The other thing is that, provided the forks are straight, I don't have a problem taking the forks off, making sure everything is burr free and putting the fork seals in.   We have to do that with the KTM anyway... again.

I won't sell a bike that I know something is wrong with though.  If it was just cosmetic and parts replacement that I did, I'm find with that.  Bent forks make it a write off to me. (As in I'm not going buy it to invest the money into it myself, and someone else can buy it from the kid and fix the forks.)

At least with the year finding parts on Ebay shouldn't be too difficult. Personally, if I see "rebuilt" I stop looking right then and there. That's just me, though. Price is a big factor of course. If normal pricing was $4000 and could pick up it for under $2k, then maybe I would. My two cents....

That's one of the things that I saw too.  A lot of the parts will fit 1999 - 2006.   Rebuilt is not as bad as we all think.  I tried to stop looking too, but I did a little asking around about rebuilt, and talked to people with no vested interest in this transaction.  Rebuilt means that it had to go through certification before it could be registered again.  This is more than a bike that hits the ground and the ins company is never told.  They must be mechanically safe to pass inspection.

Ok,.. here are the numbers:
Blackbook for here is:
Fair: $2700  AVG: $3500 Clean: $4400

For Avg condition we could expect to sell it for $5000, and clean for about  $5500  This is from the dealer's GM.  

The kid wants $3000 firm for the bike, and I need to put about $400 into it.  Based on the work I want to do to it, it should list as "Avg" when we're done.  Now, if the forks are bent, then that's it. We're looking for a different bike.

[stormi]

Yes indeed somewhere in there give or take a couple of years. Shhhh dont tell no-one, but I rode it more than a couple of ttimes before it got turned into "pink bits".
After it came out of the shed of creation pink, I just couldn't bring myself to ride it, or at least admitting to riding it. But having said that there was times on the B6 that I could not keep up with the Hond.......hond. And on couple of rides the minister and swapped I even had fun, shhhh.

Ok,. it's alright,.. I won't tell a soul...

Simon's get off. A simple one standing at a roundabout and being rearended. Basic damage. rear body work exhaust can, Lwr right fair paint handle bar end and brake lever. Not a big one at all. Frame however was still checked for straightness. Bike was well out of warranty, but Honda certainly was not forthcoming with any information or technical advice in helping solve, this very very costly problem. In fact we ended up finding a certain gentleman, who makes a soul living from the misgivings of honda (aust) who did supply all the needed codes and readings to finally solve the problems. So good is he Honda dealers use him to fix their problems.

Hmm,.. the rear is where the brains of the operation is though to as I recall.  That could have something to do with it.   That's a real shame that the dealer was unable to help.  Did he try more than one dealer?  I have about 3 -4 to choose from around here, so if one gave me bad service I would have an other option.

[orionburn]

Front fenders are kind of flimsy to begin with, and going down wouldn't take much to destroy the mounting tabs, but leave the forks ok. I'm no expert, but could the forks have flexed enough to cause the seal to leak yet not bend the tubes? That's the bad things about forks - you don't know what's going on in the inside. Granted you'd think it should show some significant cosmetic damage in order to cause internal problems. Worse comes to worse you could easily get a used set of forks for under $200 from eBay if needed.

One thing I've wondering about in regards to the speedo problem. Aren't most sensors located on the front wheel? If so, then any change in gearing/sprockets should not affect that. The front wheel is always going to spin the same amount of times regardless of changes made in the rear. If the sensor is up there, then it's probable that it may have been damaged as well.

Front cowls are not cheap, but depending on where the problem is it is possible to graft a piece to the existing cowl. That's what we had to do on my FZR. It had been dropped as well and was missing a chunk out of it. A good body guy should be able to take care of it without too much fuss. Again, that depends on exactly where the damage is at.

If you haven't already it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a look through eBay and see what parts are going for. That way you'll have a better idea on what sort of money you'd be looking at for replacement parts.

[stormi]

Front fenders are kind of flimsy to begin with, and going down wouldn't take much to destroy the mounting tabs, but leave the forks ok.

That's what we're fairly sure happened.   The kid said that the bike went down at low speed in a corner, the previous owner did it.  The guy hit some gravel, and the damage on the bike supports what he said.

I'm no expert, but could the forks have flexed enough to cause the seal to leak yet not bend the tubes? That's the bad things about forks - you don't know what's going on in the inside. Granted you'd think it should show some significant cosmetic damage in order to cause internal problems. Worse comes to worse you could easily get a used set of forks for under $200 from eBay if needed.

The forks can also twist in the triple clamps.  They don't have to bend or anything to look wrong.   If they twist in the triples, then you loosen everything and you bounce the front wheel a few times, then tighten it all up again.  Sort of a "wheel alignment" for a bike.  

The other thing possibility is that someone wheelied it and brought it down too hard.  

I also read somewhere that a minor bend can be straightened in a vice.  That's all these will have at the worst.

The good news is that there were no marks on the forks themselves. So chances are they took no direct impact.

Ebay scares me a little.  I've had one experience with it, and it wasn't a good one.  

One thing I've wondering about in regards to the speedo problem. Aren't most sensors located on the front wheel? If so, then any change in gearing/sprockets should not affect that. The front wheel is always going to spin the same amount of times regardless of changes made in the rear. If the sensor is up there, then it's probable that it may have been damaged as well.

Both the 919 and the CBR have the speedo reading from the transmission.  The speedo is out by about 30% ( I was wrong about the 50%, it seemed like it during the test ride)

I suspect that I know why on this too.  1.  factory out, 2.  2 teeth bigger on the back 3.  Smaller than stock back tire.

The bike has a 160/60/17 on it, and it should have a 180/55/17 on it.

Front cowls are not cheap, but depending on where the problem is it is possible to graft a piece to the existing cowl. That's what we had to do on my FZR. It had been dropped as well and was missing a chunk out of it. A good body guy should be able to take care of it without too much fuss. Again, that depends on exactly where the damage is at.

I can do the body work, I used to do it on my firebird.  I'm rusty, but I can "remember" on this one.  The materials should cost me about $50 - $75 to fix is, better than the $1000 for new parts, and probably $200+ in ebay parts.

If you haven't already it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a look through eBay and see what parts are going for. That way you'll have a better idea on what sort of money you'd be looking at for replacement parts.

I've called a few wreckers around here, and they don't have much.  The total I quoted for fixing it was full bore retail for new parts.  I figured that I can get most of it for less, but it not, that was the top end of the cost to repair.  It should just get lower from there, assuming that I'm going to do the body work and I can't see a reason not to.

[orionburn]

Ebay scares me a little. I've had one experience with it, and it wasn't a good one.

I understand about fleabay. I've gotten burned a few times. For the most part I've had good experiences. Biggest screwover I got was a rim that was listed as being from an FZR (looked like it) but was a YZF rim. Threw out my plans last winter for the conversion to the 17" rear. Best advice I can offer is only buy from people that have a fair amount of transactions, a high % rating, and accepts PayPal.

I bought a set of forks for my FZR and they were top notch shape. I actually spent less buying used forks than getting the seals replaced...go figure. If you ever need help/advice on something let me know. Hell I can bid on something for you if you don't want to deal with it yourself. Hopefully, though, you'll be able to get all your parts locally.

Keep us posted on what you decide  

[H2RICK]

My .02 here, FWIW....
Frankly, Scarlett Gerl, I smell a money pit yawning beneath your feet.
NEVER/NEVER expect to make money/break even on ANY bike, especially a "fixer-upper". Those stories of big bux on a bike deal are mostly urban myths, IMHO.
Run away from this one....as fast as you can.
Or at least wait until the season is more advanced and the price starts to drop down a lot more.
Remember: fixer-uppers are like buses. If you miss this one, there'll be another one along in 15 minutes or so.