Limiting cc's to newbies

[PitterB4]

No one is questioning the intellegence of starting out on an R1.  The question is, does the government have any right whatsoever to regulate our intellegence (or lack thereof).  In my very strong, not-so-humble opinion, they DO NOT. 

[speedwaymaniac]

I fully agree that starting out on a large machine is for the majority a stupid idea! But there are always people that will easily be able to and be able to control a large machine from the get-go.

As has already been mentioned i think it should be compulsory to have training of some sort that much is certain. Especially bike oriented training for a car driver, there's two many incidents of sorry didn't see you!

Due to the fact that i have to have my B6 restricted i know how irritating it is to have to go through finding, fitting and sticking to a legal restriction. (Especially with the probationery period we now have here in the UK limiting us to 6 Penatly Points (endorsements) before our licence is revoked in a 2 year period, and not having the restriction will if caught count as driving a vehicle with no insurance and licence being at least 6 points and a big fine.) So i definitely agree its annoying to have the government butt there noses in to my safety etc.

[Heyu]

You know after reading a lot of these posts maybe for young people it should be the responsability of the parent to convince a young rider to start out slow, and maybe it's fellow riders/friends that should make the effort to convince new riders of what the intelligent choice would be for a starter bike. I was and still am a believer in some type of controls on brand new riders,I would be happy with mandatory training, but as has been pointed out governments always go to far with it, so is their an answer for this question that can sastisfy the masses I say "no".
 If even in places where they have these controls riders are getting into trouble, then the obvious answer is "you are eventually responsible for you're own actions" and too many people today do not accept this, it is somebody else's mistake. The governments of the world cannot legislate stupidity out of the masses.
  So even though I voted "yes" I would like to change my vote to "no" as the question is put here. I am however in favour of mandatory rider training always will be. I have taken various rider training courses over the years and I have been down on the pavement 5 times in my life all of them my fault and every one of those bikes was under 750 cc.
 On a side note my best friends fiance was killed when she ran wide on a city street on her 250cc honda size didn't matter there but if she had to take a rider course of some kind it would have made the difference
as she did not know how to counter steer.

[rkfire]

LMAO yeah....250cc limit for over 40!

Good point but,

Many riders of an age of 40 plus, ( We shall Call them born again riders for the point I'm making ) have not ridden since the 70's. Let thier licence slip. Hold a full car licence. Sit their learners permit, don't by a bike. ( to shyte scared to be seen by their so called mates on a wee 250cc) get their licence and sit on it till their off their restrictions. Yeh smart stuff, buy a 140hp plus rocket and legally ride it.

These riders and Newbies DO do count here as the greatest riders at risk. plain and simple fact.... So do we continue to let those who are to shyte scared to be seen on a LAM's bike or a 250 because their efen ego efen big. Or do we just sit back let Darwin's theory take its course. then jack up after governments have banned motorcycling altogether.

It's likely that many of these older riders are either new to motorcycles, or rusty. The thing is, they're buying cruiser tho, not 140 HP sportbikes. They've bought a physically large bike, but with a whopping 50 HP or so. They aren't trying to roadrace them, they ride up and down their favorite cruising street on the weekend, here's where that alcohol statistic comes in, then when the car takes a left turn they lock the rear brake, if they come to a corner they're probably surprised the bike scrapes chrome parts very early.

Maybe another proposal could be, bikes should be capable of leaning 45 degrees (or some number), and brakes should be linked and ABS. I bet those 2 would save quite a few lives.

[B6mick]

Well the figures I have seen would suggest, that is what is happening, born again riders are the problem every bit as the newbie rider. Whether they are boulevard cruisers or open road riders, they need to work up time in the saddle before being cut loose. The Vic government Learners permit now requires 120 + hours with a % being after dark before a license test can be sat for. And a log book must be kept, maybe something along these lines is required. I really don’t see a difference between a 40 year old and an 18 year old.
Both are just as capable of being a total f*#*wits whilst in control of two wheels, just one is supposed to know better. Yeh I know better, and yes I to can be what others would see as being a total f*#*wit, but at least I’ve got 30 plus years of being a total f*#*wit to have some idea of where my limits and my bikes limits are.

Here is a proposal, you have no choice but to own either a LAM's or 250cc motorcycle, for a set period of time before being allowed to purchase a bigger motorcycle. At least learn some real time, real life, road craft on a light weight controllable motorcycle before getting on a 200kg 100hp+ bike.

It's likely that many of these older riders are either new to motorcycles, or rusty. The thing is, they're buying cruiser tho, not 140 HP sportbikes. They've bought a physically large bike, but with a whopping 50 HP or so. They aren't trying to roadrace them, they ride up and down their favorite cruising street on the weekend, here's where that alcohol statistic comes in, then when the car takes a left turn they lock the rear brake, if they come to a corner they're probably surprised the bike scrapes chrome parts very early.

Now down here yes this would account for some of the born agains, but a lot are going for the 70's retro bikes, XJR1300's GSX1400's CB1300's and the list goes on. not one of these bikes, should be let into the hands of a greenhorn, with sweetbugger all, will spit you down the road, at the very first sign of contempt. In years gone by when motorcycling was a very small minority letting Darwins theory do its thing was not such a problem, at the end of the day the numbers where small, but now the penny counters, are looking at the overall costs, and with governments set on penny pinching, we as motorcyclists are in the crosshairs.

But if we ignore the rising motorcycle death and injury rates, as motorcycling and scooter riding become more and more popular, we will find, that the costs motorcycling puts upon the community, will force governments to outlaw motorcycling on the roads altogether. No I'm not daydreaming, one minister of parliament here in OZ (I forget who it was, as it was quite a few years ago) has already made such a comment. So do we buckle to government regulations for the good of us all, or do we just sit on our collective butts, and let the numbers and the costs, rise out of control till we and our lifestyle is banished to an outlaw existence, or to track days?

No I don’t have the answers to this growing problem, yes I hate being told by governments to do this and do that. But at the risk of one thing I most passionately love besides my family, something does need to be done. I have no time for 40 year olds with ego problems, build a efen bridge and get over it, get your 250cc or LAM’s bike and ride it, serve ya time, if ya mates don’t like it, stiff shyte, that just proves they ain’t ya mates anyway. Newbies and born agains are of the same, they share the same amount of skills, sweet bugger all, they need to be regulated, end of story. I don’t give a toss about how many years of dirt riding anyone has done, In fact I don’t give a shyte if ya the ex AMA champ, serve ya time like everybody else. Off road riding counts for sweet F A when it comes to road riding.

Heres one that should sort a few out, become a motorcycle courier for a month, ride for a living, you'll learn more in a month than your'll learn in a life time of riding. Its not just about your ablity to control a bike, its about controling the enviroment around you. and sorry its only way you learn, that is time with ya butt in the saddle.

[rkfire]

Mick, I was only referring to USA riders. The older ones are buying the cruisers 10 to 1 or more over any sporting bike or standard.

At the same time, gov't costs isn't really an issue here, we're privately insured. Not that the insurance companies don't try messing with motorcyclists here and there.

YOU might not give dirt riding any consideration BUT the US accident and fatality statistics bear out that riders with dirt bike experience are UNDER represented in the accident and fatality rate!!

[Forde]

hey bholland, cell phone use is banned in the uk while driving.  Incidentally, the guy who crashed his car into my bike and nearly killed me on a perfect day for visibility on a perfectly straight road was on his cell phone at the time.

and to all the people who keep saying "the government dont have a right to protect us from our own stupidity" , i believe power should be regulated to new riders to protect other people from the stupidity of those riders who are a liability on the road and could easily injure or kill someone, and have done so.

[Vidrazor]

The problem with not having "the government" restrict engine size for a newbie, or a returning rider for that matter, is that nobody is going "govern" themselves and buy a small bike, or get themselves proper training for that matter. They're out to satisfy their egos, and all their friends are riding big bikes, so they need one too, right? That's the typical modus operandi.

Even if an "old timer" is buying a 50hp cruiser, it happens to be an EIGHT HUNDRED POUND SLUG. If they don't have their riding skills up to snuff (which of course they won't), they're going to (for instance) take a turn the same way they did on their old CB750 in '70s. So what do you think happens next? 50 hp is also going to be plenty of power to get that slug up to, say, 70mph. What's that old timer going to do when all of a sudden he has to quickly stop that slug for whatever reason on his first day out with the wind in his hair?

So yes, nobody likes the idea of the government telling us what bikes we need to ride when starting out, or re-starting, but who's going to govern themselves and approach it intelligently? VERY few people.

[Sven]

hey bholland, cell phone use is banned in the uk while driving.  Incidentally, the guy who crashed his car into my bike and nearly killed me on a perfect day for visibility on a perfectly straight road was on his cell phone at the time.

and to all the people who keep saying "the government dont have a right to protect us from our own stupidity" , i believe power should be regulated to new riders to protect other people from the stupidity of those riders who are a liability on the road and could easily injure or kill someone, and have done so.

I am one of the few people I know who can use a cell phone while driving and not go off into some sort of fugue.  But I would be willing to give up my right to do so if it would protect me from all those dazed and confused drivers who seem to be visualizing their conversation instead of paying attention to traffic.

I agree that anyone who things "the government doesn't have the right to..." is pissing up the wrong tree.  (Or is that barking?)   But I would prefer a government that protects us from others than from ourselves.  Yes, there are riders who buy an overpowered bike and hurt someone else.  Yes there are drivers who fail to wear a seat belt and rack up huge taxpayer-funded medical bills.  But I believe that the larger numbers are those who kill themselves by riding a bike they can't control, or going headlong through a windshield.  I want a government that understands the value of personal freedom through social responsibility.

[PitterB4]

The problem with not having "the government" restrict engine size for a newbie, or a returning rider for that matter, is that nobody is going "govern" themselves and buy a small bike, or get themselves proper training for that matter. They're out to satisfy their egos, and all their friends are riding big bikes, so they need one too, right?

Uh.... for one, I did (B4).

99.9% of these biking newbies that actually hurt someone, only hurt themselves, right?  I'm sorry but tough shit for them.  The cell phone thing isn't a good analogy becuase they are atificially distracted and piloting a multi-ton car and will likely hurt someone else (although I'm against cell phone restrictions, too).  The government has absolutely no business regulating "social responsibility."

[rkfire]

The problem with not having "the government" restrict engine size for a newbie, or a returning rider for that matter, is that nobody is going "govern" themselves and buy a small bike, or get themselves proper training for that matter. They're out to satisfy their egos, and all their friends are riding big bikes, so they need one too, right? That's the typical modus operandi.

Even if an "old timer" is buying a 50hp cruiser, it happens to be an EIGHT HUNDRED POUND SLUG. If they don't have their riding skills up to snuff (which of course they won't), they're going to (for instance) take a turn the same way they did on their old CB750 in '70s. So what do you think happens next? 50 hp is also going to be plenty of power to get that slug up to, say, 70mph. What's that old timer going to do when all of a sudden he has to quickly stop that slug for whatever reason on his first day out with the wind in his hair?

Probably the same thing he'll do on a 250 which also goes say, 70mph

So yes, nobody likes the idea of the government telling us what bikes we need to ride when starting out, or re-starting, but who's going to govern themselves and approach it intelligently? VERY few people.

Well, I'd say most people do start off intelligently, and with the knowlege they are new to this motorcycle thing, and ride as such. The relatively few that don't are the ones making the news.

If you really believe that, then you must believe that gov't had get better control over new drivers, types of cars they drive, alcohol interlocks on all ignitions, hell....the highest speed limit in the USA is 70mph, I guess it would be prudent that all vehicles be made unable to exceed that.

I think the point is, with 4,300 deaths, we're a minority community, ripe for mandates. On the other hand, not a word about the 42,000 automobile deaths per year. Be carefull of what you wish for.

[Barbarian]

The government has absolutely no business regulating "social responsibility." 

Social responsibility no longer exists in North America.

Bring back duelling and the govt won't need to legislate self responsibility.

[Red01]

...the highest speed limit in the USA is 70mph, I guess it would be prudent that all vehicles be made unable to exceed that.

The highest speed limit in the USA is 75mph.



Sorry - I pick fly dung from the pepper for a living 

[TK421]

So yes, nobody likes the idea of the government telling us what bikes we need to ride when starting out, or re-starting, but who's going to govern themselves and approach it intelligently? VERY few people.

While this may be true, its not an argument for government intervention.  Look, I have been investigating traffic crashes for almost ten years, including numerous motorcycle fatalities.  In all that time I've seen exactly ONE case where a person other than the rider was killed by a bike (although he was also killed,) and that was a very unusual case involving illegal street racing. 

Fact is stupidity kills, but on a bike it almost without exception kills only the rider.  I look to the law to protect me from other people's stupidity, not my own.

[Bob Holland]

...the highest speed limit in the USA is 70mph, I guess it would be prudent that all vehicles be made unable to exceed that.

The highest speed limit in the USA is 75mph.



Sorry - I pick fly dung from the pepper for a living 

On I 20 and I 10, in West Texas the speed limit is 80 mph, I drive it twice a year.