Are the float needles replaceable on the B400s

[novicoupe]

Ok I bought a Bandit 400 for my son. It would only start  intermittently when we bought it. But only at full choke and half throttle . So I took carbs off and  apart cleaned them. Then had major issues with them leaking fuel.  Well pouring fuel everywhere. SO took it to bike shop. He replaced the o rings for floats but still had same problems.  He is telling me the float needles are shot but are not replaceable and I need to buy the  complete float for each carb which are little over $80.  Trying to figure this out as I found a place that sell a kits with just float needles and bowl gaskets which leads me to believe they can be replaced.   SO any help would be greatly appreciated.     Thx

[andrewsw]

you don't need to post the same post 3 times... ;)

It is possible to replace the float needles, I've had them out of my float assemblies before. It's annoying but not hard. Just use care as the floats can be delicate. If I remember correctly, you have to actually remove the float from its frame and then the float needles just slide right out.

NOTE: This operation will almost *surely* bork the float level settings. After it's all back together you'll have to adjust that. It's not hard and there are several threads on here about how to do it. It is important, so don't skip it. I do it like shown in the photos over here: http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13359.msg105338#msg105338

Your other posts suggest there is more wrong with the float assemblies than just some bad needles. Care to elaborate?

Finally, flush out the fuel line and fuel galleries in the carbs. Look over the fuel filter built into the petcock, and contemplate investing in an inline fuel filter. These bikes are notorious for getting stuck float needles from gunk in the lines. Often this comes from surface rust in the tank, so check that out too. A tiny piece of crap will stick that float wide open and then things go downhill rapidly. Also, be aware that stuck open floats lead to fuel in the oil (runs from the carb, down the intake, into the cylinder, seeps around the rings and into the oil...).

A

[novicoupe]

Well 1st off thanks for the reply.  Didn't post this 3 times. LOl other 2 were related but different.  AS far as elaborating on float problems . Local bike shop guy is good but not always great with bikes. He works on everything and is a super smart guy but sometimes I wonder. AS  I am a car guy and pretty mechanical. SO of course I get on places like here and read and try to learn. Well he argues with me about things I know are right because I have read several post confirming it.  He is telling me the float needles are absolutely non replaceable.  Even though I read couple threads  where saw guys saying they replaced theirs. I just wanted to confirm this.  He wants me to buy 4 new complete assemblies because he says the float needles are worn and cant just replace them by themselves. He is also trying to say the float assemblies  are warped themselves.  Guy  I bought bike from said he rode it everyday.  You know how that goes.  Only way I could get it to start and run very little was at full choke and give it half throttle. When I pulled carbs and tore em apart the bowls were full of varnish.. Cleaned them all very well and replaced the floats oring  but just with ones I had.  Well put it all back together and soon as I hooked up fuel line  I had fuel running out everywhere.  Decided to just take it to him.  Well now he is saying I need almost $400 in parts alone since float assemblies are around $80 each.  I tried telling him float needles are replaceable as I found a place that sell just hem and bowl gaskets in a kit. But he said they are not replaceable. I am just trying to get this figured out and not spend money for parts that I really can do without.  So any help is greatly appreciated.

[andrewsw]

Okay, take it 1 thing at a time. If fuel running out all the time with the engine off? Fuel should only run w/ the engine on, you need vacuum on the petcock to allow fuel to flow. If it's running w/ engine off, either it's in the prime position (which requires the hack of removing the stop screw on the petcock) or the petcock is broken and needs repair.

Pull the float assemblies and look them over. I just use my mouth (yuck, gas) to try to blow through the fuel passage and work the floats to make sure it seals properly. If they don't seal, either there is gunk blocking them from closing properly, or the mechanic is right and the needles are worn. Not much more to it than that.

[novicoupe]

Ok. Thx.  But mind walking me thru how to changebout the float needles if they are worn? He is telling me you can't.  Found float needle kit with new bowl gaskets for $35 plus shipping.  He wants me to buy all brand new floats which are about $330.   

[bdouvill]

If I am not wrong, the float needle is made of metal when the floats are made of plastic. How can the needles possibly be worn? Can someone tell me where I am wrong? I believe this is like this one Bandit 400 where other Suzukis of the late 90's (like 500GSE or GSXRs) can have a metallic holder for needle. In that case (metal vs metal), I am incline to admit that the needle can be worn.
Anyway, float level adjustment is a very sensitive area. Too low, the engine will crank but not rev (not enough gas in the little reservoir next to the carb to provide to the engine). Too high: the gas stored in the little reservoir will flow down into the engine oil, even if the engine is not running (meaning the petcock is closed)!!! At least, the quantity of gas between the petcock and the carb reservoir will flow down, thanks to gravity.

[andrewsw]

If I am not wrong, the float needle is made of metal when the floats are made of plastic. How can the needles possibly be worn?

great question! I *think* the tip of the needle is actually rubber, but I'm not sure and it's been a while since I looked.

Regardless, novicoupe, it's possible the float adjustment is just way off too. Adjusted so that the floats *can't* close the fuel flow.

[bdouvill]

Here is a picture of one of my float needles:
http://img43.xooimage.com/files/e/3/b/pointeaumikunibst33ss_01-1f5a6bc.jpg
This was taken when I got the bike 3 years ago, I unbuilt everything I was able too ;-)
I remember having this discussion with another B4 owner on a french forum: the needle is metallic (no idea why one part is golden and the other is dark, probably not the same metal) and it fits into a platic part (the float itself) so there's no reason that the needle can be used, but as I said, it's mounted differently on other Suzis. Needle is inserted in another metallic part, both comes in contact to close the gas channel, see for ex. here:
http://www.motorradteile-zubehoer.de/epages/61126768.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61126768/Products/vergaser_0015/SubProducts/vergaser_0015-0010

[phoenix]

Novicoupe,
Removal of the float needles is pretty straight forward.  I opened up one of my spare sets to get a couple of quick shots.

Remove float assembly from the carb

Gently spread the arms of the float assembly and work the floats out of the cage.  There are slots molded into the cage/hanger so you don't have to spread the arms as far.

Apart

The float needles on all 3 sets of my carbs have rubber tips. Haven't seen a solid metal tip, but I wouldn't be surprised if some markets had them.

If there's no wear around the sealing tip (pointy bit should be nice and smooth with no indentions), then also check the spring loaded pin on the other end of the needle.

If the carbs were gummed up, this bit may be stuck.  A little soak of carb cleaner will usually free it up.  If a one, two, or all 4 are jammed, you may not be able to get a good float height setting.  It'd worsen as fuel eventually loosened up the spring loaded pin and your float height will go out of adjustment.

Reassembly with either your old needles or new ones is the same thing, just in reverse.  Just be gentle with the float cage/hanger when spreading it apart to insert the float.  I've had multiple sets apart and have yet to damage a float hanger.

[novicoupe]

Thank you so very much Phoenix.   Thats exactly what I needed.