Author Topic: B4 Stalls Randomly...  (Read 7988 times)

Offline tomacGTi

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 663
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2008, 09:42:00 AM »
OK, here's my .02$$ as far experience from car stuff is concerned with clarifying backfiring and raspberries out of the exhaust. I have owned cars that would throw fireballs out of the back in between shifts and sounded like a .45 when slowing in gear. All normal.

Backfire: this is when combustion comes physically out of the chamber and into and through the intake. Due mostly to mistiming, the event goes past the intake valves and into the airbox. This is way louder than decel popping and way more damaging. The intake valves were not designed to take this abuse because the heat can't be transferred from the face into the seat. That and they're built less robustly because they use fuel as well to cool them on the backside. In extreme cases, you can blow the carbs out of the boots or even the airbox. There are youtube videos of Mustangs that had a nitrous backfire blow apart a cast aluminum manifold on the dyno.

This is bad and something is wrong, no amount of dicking with your carb will fix this. Basically means something is out of time (physical timing or otherwise) and is only a matter of time till something lets go. Ever wonder why that screen exists in your airbox? Yep, it's a backfire screen to help keep your air filter from catching fire if this were to happen.

Raspberries; also know as decel popping: happens naturally under deceleration with closed or partially closed throttle, made even more obvious by an aftermarket can with a straight through baffle. The chambers of a stock muffler help hide this anomaly to an extent. Due to the mixture being sucked into the header pipes between cycles, the mixture then ignites in the pipes (naturally, because they're hot) and voila, popopopop. You can also get this on higher rev shifts between shifts as the mixture is moving so fast in and out of the motor that the interruption will mimic what happens in decel.

Made worse by bikes with PAIR valves that inject air into the exhaust to burn the excess fuel. This is actually not a bad thing and really a byproduct of the cam timing manufacturers use so that the overlap pulls in additional intake and excess exhaust in and out of the chambers.

I have no idea why this is always something that people try to tune out with fuel screws because in theory, it stands to add more fuel to the chamber to possibly make it worse. Ever watch a race when the guys are using maintainance throttle through a corner and you see flame and hear the popopop? That's what that is, a little decel popping on the overrun.

Here's the thing if you try to lean this out: you will raise combustion temperatures and perhaps even start to ping. Ideally, you should make sure the mixture is correct for the amount of air going in and out of the motor and not try to fight the byproduct of this, popping or otherwise, with messing with screws, etc.

Set up your bike so it runs well. If you don't like the popping etc that comes with higher performance stuff that was designed not to suppress this: go back to stock. You cannot tune around some of this stuff, it will only make matters worse.

Offline VW_NUT

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 09:51:45 AM »
I don't mind the sound out the back at all, just trying to get rid of the stall.  Flames would be good for tailgaters!!  :beers:

Offline tomacGTi

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 663
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 10:19:24 AM »
The only thing I can think of is something is up with the pilots; clogged or otherwise.

I know on my bike with 3.25 turns after a really hard run, the idle will dip just a little below where I set it and will come back up. Sometimes it needs a little nudge with the throttle but it hasn't stalled since the exhaust cam days. AFAIK stock setting is 1600 for idle so I set it right around there. I didn't want to risk too low also because of oil pressure (motor turning too slow). I spun rod bearings on the car with cams because the idle was set factory instead of higher.

I'd revert back to the box-stock Factory Pro suggestions and see if it does it even then. I think maybe being a full clip up on the needles may be what's doing it. I tried the fourth clip and I'm back to 3 and a washer (3.5) because it made the bike wicked-flat in that RPM range.


Offline VW_NUT

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 10:29:48 AM »
on the middle clip it was really snatchy, now it is much smoother.  It still stalled on the middle clip. 

I think you may be on to something though cause I usually chop the throttle and overrunn the bike before pulling in the clutch.  If I just pull it in randomly thats when the bike stumbles a bit. 

If a light changes quick and I pull the clutch in and jam the brakes it will stuble just like you explan. 


Offline tomacGTi

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 663
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 11:02:50 AM »
Try a washer and the third clip, I think you may be a hair fat in the midrange. Not necessarily a bad thing but you could be possibly making more power a slight bit leaner.

Usually rich is very smooth and lean is very loud on the pipe with less go. Personal experience anyway.

Maybe you're used to the way your Duc is? No excuse though because the carbs should still work regardless.

Offline PitterB4

  • Administrator
  • Board Homesteader!
  • *****
  • Posts: 3698
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 11:21:17 AM »
That was me with the backfires... sorry for the minor hijack.  I need to pull my plugs and see what's what.  I have a decent amount of sooting on the pipe. 
Rob
Bikeless!
'93 Bandit 400 - SOLD
'98 Honda F3 Track Bike - SOLD
'98 Kawi ZX-6R Street Bike - SOLD
NESBA #87 - RETIRED
'00 Gary Fisher Kaitai
'09 Bianchi Via Nirone 7

Offline pmackie

  • Site Supporters
  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 1149
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 12:22:24 PM »
If you haven't done so yet, check the float height and condition of the float needles, as well as fuel line and petcock for adequate flow. Maybe you're not getting quite enough fuel into the bowls and/or the level is just a little low, causing too little fuel in the airflow once you let the revs drop as you pull in the clutch?
Paul
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Leo Vince Ex & Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
32 years in the Fuel/lubes industry(Retired)

Offline hangin_biposto

  • TURBO TYPER!
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 01:02:54 PM »
Random thought for Tony - we were having the stalling issue before the fuel filter install right? I can't remember now... The damn thing has been tweaked so many times...

Offline VW_NUT

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 01:05:12 PM »
yes.  Fuel flow is not a problem..

Offline andrewsw

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 01:20:45 PM »
take notes. It's easy to think you'll be able to keep track of all the changes and the effects they have, but it's not (at least for me). :roll:

Offline hangin_biposto

  • TURBO TYPER!
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2008, 11:59:16 AM »
I took the bike out last night to see if adjusting the screws made any kind of difference and though it didn't stall on me this time, the bike didn't feel as good as it did before. We took a slightly different route though, and I rolled one of the stops where it religiously stalls on me. The bike seemed lacking in power vs. before the screw adjustment.

One thing that Tony noticed is that my painted headers/pipe are a bit more white/chalky than they were before. The high temp paint was holding up quite well, as far as staying black, but it really lightened up the past couple of times out so he thinks things were running a bit hot/lean.

Apparently he tweaked it again after we agreed that it felt a little numb, as I got an email from him this morning stating that the bike was much happier today with 3 turns at the screws. I'm sure he will chime in at some point with the rest of the details...


Offline VW_NUT

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2008, 12:12:41 PM »
Yup much better.  Almost got a ticket on the ride to work...  I might try what Tomac GTI recomended and move the clip from position 4 to 3 1/2 (3+washer).  I may check the pilot jets for crap & try to clean out the small ports into the intake.  Maybe one of them has a little blockage.

Bike is still running strong and 98% of the time the idle is pretty solid.   :annoy:

Plugs stil look good.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 12:14:22 PM by VW_NUT »

Offline tomacGTi

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 663
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2008, 12:35:27 PM »
Nice to hear you're closing in on it Tony.

Offline VW_NUT

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2008, 09:35:47 AM »
Ok, so I am honing on it a little further. 

It seams like the bike is loading up a bit a low throttle say 1/4 or so.  I moved the clip to the the middle position and it still felt decent, but still stalled on occasion.  I moved it up again, and no stalling and the idle is rock solid when you pull the clutch in.  No dip in the revs at all.

So here is the rub.  With the clip on #2 some of the part throttle is pretty lean.  At about 1/2 or so it's numb but does get a little better when the bike is warmer.

I called factory pro and they said to try #3 with a lower fuel height.  I haven't tried that yet.  I am wondering if worn emulsion tubes cause this.  They look fine to me, but I don't know.

 

Offline tomacGTi

  • Board Homesteader!
  • ***
  • Posts: 663
Re: B4 Stalls Randomly...
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2008, 09:56:14 AM »
Duane had a pretty interesting chart which showed throttle position versus circuits in the carb. Kind of helpful if you're getting that close to dialling it all in.

http://hondanighthawks.net/carb14.htm
http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,CV,high_rpm_engines.html

Between this and the FP site, you should get it sorted out.

If it's at quarter throttle, I'd guess more on the float level versus the needle but it's been awhile since I've seen the chart myself. I leave mine at/near stock when I set it up (14.6 IIRC) versus the 15mm that FP suggests. Thinking about it, means I'm leaner in that area versus their higher number. As Jay has attested this before, this affects your jetting across the range so if you do this, make sure everything is locked in and unchanged when you go to test it.

Also, Interfuse had a topic earlier that showed his emulsion tubes and extreme wear. I'd guage it on that. Obviously his look like a band saw had been through them but still. Wear is very apparant with city riding when the needle just saws in and out of the tube constantly versus completely in/out with closed and full throttle. Slide rattle doesn't help either.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:14:57 AM by tomacGTi »