Bandit 400 mods for fast road and track use - suggestions needed!

[Nick V]

Hi all :)

Just wanted to put out some ideas - I have plans in mind for the Bandit 400 I'll be investing in later this year, and I wanted to tap the pool of expertise - especially if anyone else has ever had a similar project (or mods) in mind!

I'm going to be using the bike primarily as a twisty-road toy, but I also want to start getting more involved in track days here, too (being in Gauteng Province, I have fairly easy access to Kyalami in Midrand, Midvaal Raceway in Meyerton and Zwartkops in Pretoria. All are a fairly challenging combo of medium-length straights and twisty sections - just right for a small bike whose greatest ace-in-the-hole is good handling). My motivation for choosing the Bandit 400 is threefold:
- I'm reasonably familiar with it, having owned one before, and parts for it are fairly easy to get.
- It's cheap (I can't afford to splash out megabucks on a track-day toy, or be faced with a bill for tens of thousands if I stick it into a gravel trap).
- I want to prove a point to the Duke 1198R and KTM RC8-R crowd: that you can turn laptimes just as quick on a well-set up R15 000 nail as on a pasta rocket costing 33 times more - and then, p!ss them off even more by outrunning their Porsche Cayennes while they're trailering their expensive toys home.
(Did I mention that I have a sadistic streak?) 

As an alternative, I'm also considering streetfightering something like a GSX-R 400 or Gull-arm CBR 400 - it would mean something with adjustable suspension and an alloy frame and swingarm as standard... but I know myself... I'm 90% sure I'll end up arranging to buy one of those, then veering off and buying a B4 at the last second...

Discounting the cosmetic and other bolt-on stuff (which, knowing me, will be in a constant state of flux and 99% of which I build myself anyway), my major concerns for the Bandit are:

1. Suspension.
2. Tyres.
3. Frame.

1: The standard suspension I had on my old '92 Bandit was okay for the road, but nothing special.
I'm 81 Kg (178 Ibs) and 1.86m (6"1). I don't see myself ever using this bike for two-up riding; my BMW streetfighter can handle that. If the next bike's going to see fast road use as well as fast track use, I need suspension with a fair range of preload, compression and rebound adjustment. Kyalami and Zwartkops are billiard-table smooth; Midvaal is a bit rougher, but still okay. Road riding in SA is a lottery - with the preparations for the soccer world cup underway, bodged roadwork jobs are everywhere. A section of premium tarmac that could have come straight from a German autobahn can lead you straight onto an un-drained, pot-holed abortion that's so badly rutted it can actually throw a bike off line at freeway speeds.

Reading the forums here, I see that some owners have retrofitted Hayabusa and Bandit 1200 rear shocks to their bikes. I also saw mention of GSX-R 1100, '88 to '92 GSX-R 750, '01 GSX-R 600 and late-model GSX-R 750 rear shocks being used.
Does anyone else have any other suggestions? Sourcing pretty much any rear shock I want is not a problem. The breakers here have loads of stuff - the difficulty lies in making the right choice, first time. I don't want to have to be swapping shocks back and forth - I don't have the money or inclination to do huge amounts of testing!

Also, the unadjustable front end will need sorting. erik mentioned heavier-weight front springs and a higher fork oil viscosity on his B4 (15W?) - I may go the same route, but I also saw others who had mentioned using GSX-R 400 or 750 USD forks... very tempting! Full adjustability would be a huge bonus.
Again, does anyone have direct experience of using these forks (or other USD types) on a Bandit 400 that sees regular track use? If so, can you give feedback?

Tyres: so far, I've seen mention of X-ply Sport Demons performing well as track tyres. On my previous bike, I used Metzeler 120/70 MEZ1s on the front and 160/60 MEZ2s on the rear. The bike never saw a racetrack. The tyres worked great for fast road riding, but are no longer available...

Brakes: If I decide to simply use custom springs and 15W or 20W fork oil in the standard forks, I can take advantage of the standard 4-pot Tokicos by using braided steel lines. When I had my previous bike, I used

EBC HH pads, but they ended up giving so much power that front-end dive under hard braking was a real problem - I needed heavier front springs but didn't have the cash for them.

If I modify the bike to this extent, another priority is a braced frame and swingarm, so I can actually take advantage of the suspension mods. Can anyone offer alternative suggestions? Would a GSX-R 400 alloy swingarm fit the standard Bandit 400 frame? Or are there any others which would?

Also, can anyone more familiar with the different Bandit 400 engines offer advice on which particular model to buy? I'm a mechanic, but my previous Bandit gave so little trouble that I rarely fiddled - I just rode it. After hearing of the drama that has to be gone through to adjust valve clearances on the VC versions, I'd prefer to stick with a non-VC version (am I right in thinking that valve clearances on the non-VC engines can be adjusted by screw and locknut?)

I'd also love to hear more about the different versions of engine.
- What year did the Bandit 400 start using variable valve timing?
- When did the VC switch from being on the exhaust cam only to being on both cams?
- Is there any significant difference in standard BHP between the VC and non-VC versions? If so, what numbers are we talking about? (Extra power on my bike will come from a full-race exhaust, free-flowing air filter and jetting. That's it. At a later stage, I may smooth out the head ports and raise the compression slightly, too.)
- What about differences in pre-set rev limit between the different versions?

Quality advice from those in the know would be hugely appreciated. I'll make no bones of it: my competitive streak is a mile wide. I intend to have Ducati and KTM owners eating my exhaust, or break the bike trying...

[Chris H]

Hi Nick,
Let me say as a VVC bandit owner that you will be best to stay well clear and get a standard B4 that is adjusted as you say.
The rear suspension has been well documented but if you are prepaired to move the header tank i beleave the R6 (the one with the same mounts as the B4) would give a more up to date shock.
Ive fitted the gsxr400 rear and its very good as you get a shoter ally arm, smaller lighter disc and a 4.5" rear which gives 160 tyres.

All the best Chris.

[Nick V]

Hi Chris!

i beleave the R6 (the one with the same mounts as the B4) would give a more up to date shock.

Silly question, I know, but when you say 'R6', do you mean the Yamaha R6? If so, which year model?

Ive fitted the gsxr400 rear and its very good as you get a shoter ally arm, smaller lighter disc and a 4.5" rear which gives 160 tyres.

I've done quite a bit of research into bike suspension from helping prepare (and occasionally 'test'  ) others' track bikes. There's a great deal of science involved.
For making a bike turn faster, a shorter overall wheelbase is a good thing, but achieving this by shortening the swingarm is not - it brings problems with rear-end oscillation and sudden pitch-attitude changes (exaggerated, on a bike like the Bandit, by it's soft forks.) That's why Yamaha finding the space to extend the swingarm to greater-than-normal lengths on the first R1s was hailed as such a breakthrough.

Do you still have your Bandit's old swingarm? If so, would it be possible for you to make comparative measurements between the two 'arms by measuring the distances from the swingarm pivot axis to the centre of the rear axle?

When I had my old B4, I used to use 160/60 Metzeler MEZ2s on the rear with no problems at all. I was initially sceptical, but no evil ever came of it... until they corded at 9 000 Km and I had to replace them. :p

Thanks for the input, mate. :) Hugely appreciated!

[Chris H]

Hi,
I beleave it the one in the link below.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Yamaha-R6-2006-2007-Rear-Shock-suspension-2CO-06-07_W0QQitemZ170405697894QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item27acf89966
And beleave me when i say that the gsxr swinger is on the money, ive had one on mine for 10years and grayola raced his B4 with one as well. Also lifted the rear about an inch.
Sv or Gsxr gk73A front wheel is also good as is 3.5" and uses the same discs as the jap B4. Will allow 120 on the front.
Chris.

[Nick V]

Food for thought!... I wonder if the extra stiffness of the Gixxer swingarm didn't outweigh any theoretical pitch-change disadvantage caused by it being shorter?

That's what's great about forums like these - they're a chance to brainstorm and exchange ideas that otherwise never would have been discussed.

Er... now the question arises: I wonder how I'd get hold of a similar Gixxer 'arm?
Bandit 400s are plentiful in SA - but trying to find a GSX-R 400 or small-Gixxer parts is like trying to find a virgin in a maternity ward...

[Ken Hill]

I've been racing one for 3 yrs. now, here's what I've done or found out with mine. Using the stock forks with Race Tech cartridge emulators, you have to use Race tech springs with them, use whatevers recommended for your wt. Started out with 15 wt. oil as per race tech rec., as I got faster started having rebound issues, am now using 20 wt. set at a higher level.

Had Works Performance build me a shock, fully adj. Had clearance issues on my first practice day, was dragging the header and both pegs by the end of the day. Made new dog bones, 1/2 inch shorter, raised the tail up 2 1/4- 2 1/2 inches. Dropped the forks down into the triple clamp so the nut on the cap is flush with the triple, that's all I dare.

I'm in the process of putting on a braced GSXR400 swingarm that I just got from Garyola. This will let me run a 4.5 " wheel off a SV and go to a 160 rear but I don't think I'm going to this yr., money's tight to be buying more rims. There's still a few company's making good tires in the stock sizes, I've been using Michelin Power One Race and haven't had any grip issues.

Stock front brake wasn't enough for racing. I machined a bracket and put on a 4 piston caliper off an early 90's 750 gixxer, alot better and it gives you alot more pad choices.

[Chris H]

We are lucky in the UK with plenty of spares available.
The other thing worth changing is the stock pipe as it weighs a ton and has a small restrictive inner pipe inside the 2" rear after the collector. If you can cut the pipe at the end of the down pipes and then build your own collector and two inch rear pipe you can save about 3kg's as the colletor alone weighs about 1.5KG's.

[Nick V]

The other thing worth changing is the stock pipe as it weighs a ton and has a small restrictive inner pipe inside the 2" rear after the collector. If you can cut the pipe at the end of the down pipes and then build your own collector and two inch rear pipe you can save about 3kg's as the colletor alone weighs about 1.5KG's.

I used to wonder why my GK75A (which presumably left the factory with a stainless standard exhaust) was wearing a race exhaust made of mild steel when it finally got to me. (Presumably, the Jap who previously owned it got wise to that exhaust restriction!)
I moved down to Cape Town shortly after I bought the bike, and that pipe rusted like nobody's business in the salt air...
Is that smaller inner pipe the main means of restricting the Bandits from their original 59 BHP down to 53?

Ken, excellent info there. A hell of an effort - good on you! 
Your stock front brake wasn't powerful enough... do you run a UK or US-spec Bandit with a single front disc?

[Ken Hill]

Single disc, have replaced the stock one with a Braking disc because the stock one was worn bad when I got the bike. The stock front caliper is just a cheap 2 piston unit. Of coarse I put a braided steel line on it.

[Banditmax]

i have a 76 swingarm i would sell for a reasonable price if your interested?

[tomacGTi]

You guys are lucky you live where there are abundant options. We've got squat here, at least without going through alot of trouble and shipping costs.

Frustrating at best...

[Chris H]

I think the RF900 forks could be a nice upgrade and available in the US, same discs as the US single disc B4 and same 190mm distance between the forks. 43mm so would need the yokes but you could probs use the B4 wheel and disc and then upgrade to the RF wheel and discs as funds allow.

[tomacGTi]

With a caliper upgrade and fork internal upgrade I'm pretty happy overall.

RF900s aren't all that common here either. I think Thief is running a Kat front end on his B4 and several others have just gone to USDs from GSXRs.

If I'm going to go any further, the fork upgrade will come with a new bike. As much as I like the little bike, watching SVs run away at the track is a bit frustrating. That and knowing the aftermarket is endless for them is another reason.

[Chris H]

LOL- the SV's in race trim sound like lawnmowers.
Ye looked at the usd forks a while back but they looked a little short so i went the pain in the ass route of fitting thundercat forks thinking that because they were 41mm they'd slide right in- how wrong i was as they are 200mm centers not 190mm and so not wanting to use the ugly 7tonne yam yoke ended up custom building.

[Guido_Brasletti]

For tyres I would suggest Pirelli Supercorsas at 110/70 - 150/60.

Never tried them on track though

http://www.pirellityre.com/web/tyres-catalog/moto-hypersport-none/en_IT/DRAGON%20SUPERCORSA%20PRO/default.page