Cam Chain Length???

[bullet5]

Hello all, I've finally gotten round to continuing with my 400 mini racer project, and the next step is to replace the stretched cam chain in the current engine. (1993 VC lump (Inlet & outlet VC Mk1))

This is complex, and I'm by no means great at explaining things, but please hear me out.


Instead of taking the engine to pieces I decided to buy a new endless chain (can't buy split link ones), cut it and add a rivet link. This way I could feed it around the engine by only removing the rocker cover.

I've finally managed to fasten the old chain to the new one and have fed it around the engine without it falling off the bottom sprocket, however my chain appears to be 1 link short. This is impossible as the chain can only be an even number of links too short, otherwise you physically can't connect the two ends.

I have removed the tops of the cam shaft guides to allow the shafts to be moved, but even then I still have problems getting the chain ends to be close enough to rivet. I can get the link ends next to each other on one sprocket, only if one of the cams is right up out of it's lower guide (I have already removed the cam chain tensioner).

If I rivet it like this it looks as though the chain is going to be too tight to allow me to put the cam back into its guide.

My question is were there any variances in cam chain length between the different 400 models, does anyone know what the right length chain for a 1993 Mk1 VC 400 is, and does anyone have any advice/tips to fitting this new chain?

Thankyou for looking, all help is really appreciated right now.
Bullet5.

[bullet5]

All the manuals and microfische's I have for the bandit 400's do not mention anything about chain length. Only that the number of pins between the marks on the cams should be 'x'.

The only place I have found any sort of link length number is on wemoto, and for my engine it's apparently 118 links. This is where I bought the chain and is how many links it says it is on the side of the packet. 

They don't list/sell a cam chain for the later mk2 B4 VC engines, so I have nothing to compare it against.

I've also not come across an answer to this question on here or on the Banditforum. Suppose I must be one of the only people replacing a cam chain on these things.

All the best,
Bullet5.

[Chris H]

The answer is in your hand.
Having removed the old cam chain simply count the number of links.
I would also check the model of the old chain as it could be a different chain to non VVC, im thinking slightly heavier due to the VVC's beefy 3 lobe cams.

[bullet5]

My appoligies I forgot to update this this morning. I've no managed to count the number of links in the old chain and it's 120. I've also confirmed this with a 2nd VC MK1 engine I have lying in bits on the floor.

I rang up wemoto and they insist that they have sold dozens of these chains without complaints.

To take the matter further I ran suzuki and it seems they don't even know what length chain is meant to be in there. They said the best thing I could do was count it myself (which I already had by this point).

So I've currently no idea what to do. Wemoto apparently don't sell a 120 link chain, and I haven't managed to find one else where.

According to Wemoto the chain for the VC MK1 is the same for the GSF 400 K/NK/Z/VM/VZM/P/NP/VP/VZP/VR Bandit(GK75A) (Japanese Market)

Mine is a VZ-P apparently ('93 plate).

Tomorrow I'm going to pull them both out and compare them for overall length. Really didn't want to do this as it means taking the chain off the lower sprocket.

I know it's not advised but it looks like I'll end up having to add two rivet links to make up the number with half a link of the old chain in it.

[Chris H]

Ye, thats a bad idea, thats why they sell them as endless due to taking a real thrashing.

If you look on the DID site i think they have listings for most bikes.

[bullet5]

The DID catalogue states that a rivited chain can be as good as a endless chain if fitted correctly. If there was a problem with them then why would they stock them or even the clip on style side plates?

I've pulled both chains out of the engine (leaving a bit of string in there so I can pull the chain back around the bottom sprocket) and the new chain is at least 2 full links short. The side plates are the exact same length so there's no difference in pitch. Had another blow off at wemoto but they insist they have done nothing wrong and it is the correct chian. They won't offer a refund or replacement either

I've only 3 options;
A) Use a link or two out of the old chain with 2 rivet links (low mileage engine so shouldn't be too bad),
B) Buy another chain, this time endless, and hope that it is the correct length, then take the engine to complete bits to fit it round the bottom end,
C) Scrap this project and sell up.

This is the 3rd engine that I'm having problems with.

Bullet5.

[Chris H]

DID supply the chains with links so it should be ok, they make the chains!

Wemoto are wrong, i'd ask for a refund as the incorrect chain has been supplied by them, where do they get their info from?

The first gen VVC does not have the same cam chain as the non VVC, they are NOT THE SAME!!!!

The non VVC is 20 pins across the cam sprokets BUT the VVC is 21 pins across the sprockets because the head is wider to fit the VVC control in.

On the Wemoto site they list DID Duplex Cam Chain SCA0412ASDH as the bandit chain but on the DID data sheet (link below) it lists 215FDHA-118, are they even sending the correct chain out for the non VVC bandit?

Fact of the matter is you need a longer chain, i'd use the info from the DID list to measure and work out what the VVC chain is 215,219 etc then tell Wemoto to supply one.

IT WILL BE 120 links.

http://www.bickersplc.com/Catalogues/DID%20Catalogue.pdf

[bullet5]

Thankyou for the link, I'd seen another DID catalogue previously but not come across that one. 

They list a; 215FDHA-118 chain, for the GSF400 M/P/R Bandit 91-95, but nothing for the VC. If I go on what I've seen, then the VC chain should be a 215FDHA-120. 
I've searched the DID catalogue and can't find a 120 length chain of that exact size.

The DID box the chain came in states it's a 215F DHA-118LE. I've no idea what the "LE" stands for, unless it is a type of connecting link that DID don't list in their catalogue..?

A SCAO412ASDH (silent chain) is incorrect as the pitch and a few other figures are out by a fair bit.
A silent chain is also something my bandit's dont have in them, they are standard chain like the one I was supplied with.

So not only are they adament that my chain should be a 118 links but they are listing a Silent chain and actually selling a standard one.

Thankyou for your help in this Chris.
I'm going to give wemoto another shouting at, and hope I come back with some better news.
Bullet5.

[Chris H]

Ye 215F seems good.
I happen to have a damaged VM chain and a non VVC engine with the cam cover off on the bench.
Hold the chains together and apart from the extra links the chains are the same.

Wemoto have never supplied the 118 chain to a VM owner as it will not fit, loads of the 400cc guys use them so lets hope they come good, the internet is a great place for slagging bad service.

Remember on rebuild its 21 pins not 20 across the chain.

[bullet5]

Yet again you prove to be a star

If I don't hear anything back from wemoto in the next few days I'll buy another split link and have an official garage rivet the links for extra piece of mind.

I was wondering whether the VVC engines required a slightly larger/tougher chain due to the extra number of valve springs it's having to deal with, but you've settled that worry without me even needing to ask

I'll be checking, double checking and triple checking every adjustment when I set the timings/chain alignments up. I really don't want any more problems with this one. If I can get a running lump then I'll be a happy man

There are a lot of forums out there for the bandits but this is by far the best for propper advice and information.

Thanks again Chris,
Bullet5.