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Offline stormi

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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2006, 03:02:53 AM »
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Today I went out on the bike. It was soaking wet, and freezing. The little B4 was reluctant to start. I opened the feul cover and water started pouring into the tank from around the opening. (I know it should drain through a hole just inside the opening, but for some reason the water doesn't drain properly.) Not too much went in, but more than I'd have liked. I still had plenty of feul, so I closed it and carried on trying to start the bike. It worked after a minute, and I was away.


The B4 is a pretty cold blooded little bike.  They don't like the cold weather.  Last year I rode to about 2C (35F) and she was not impressed with me.  Of course I've been happier too.  Nothing like shivering so hard you're afraid of dropping the bike at lights.

If the water was just around the collar and drained into the tank, it's likely from a blocked drain tube.  This tube shares with the coolant drain. Follow the hose from the bottom of the tank to where it "T"s to another.  Then both of the tubes will lead to the ground.   With the tube disconnected from both the T and the tank, push some compressed air down it to make sure it's not blocked.  If it's not, and this is still a problem, try the same procedure with the hole at the top of the tank.  Most likely some spoogy stuff will come out of one or both.

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I carried on into town and went to Bow and Stern, a shop which sells and repairs outboard motors and quads. I had an interview there the other week for an apprenticeship, and I found out today that I got the job! Yay!!   :banana:
Now I'll be getting trained properly how to fix things and how everything works!


Congrats!! Perhaps you'll also have a warm place to periodically tweak on the bike on your own too.

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Anyway, I went to leave the shop and my bike was behaving wierd. It was like the whole rev range was a flatspot. It sounded different too, kind of like it does when the engine is cold and you open the throttle too quickly, and it kind of bogs down for a second. But it sounded like this all through the rev range. And the power seemed weaker too. I guessed that this may be a symptom of my water contamination, so I went to top up with some fresh fuel.


That honestly sounds like a bad fuel mixture.  That could be from too much water in the tank versus gas (How low was the tank when the water fell in? How much water was it?  I wouldn't honestly think that there should have been too much water added to the tank,... no more really than an ounce should be possible to be held up there. ), or it could be from not enough air.  How did the exhaust look when it was doing this? White? Blue? Black?  

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Now here's the wierd part.
When I stopped at the petrol station, I got off the bike and noticed that there were two bolts sitting in my belly pan! I got them out (burning my hand on the down pipes in the process  :duh: ) and tried to figure out where they were from. To be honest, they looked like engine casing bolts. To start with it looked like they had fallen out of somewhere, but looking closer I saw that the bolts had snapped. I couldn't find anywhere that they had come from. I considerewd the possibility that they had come from my last engine, and just been sitting in there ever since it had been in the garage getting fixed, but I have cleaned my bike a few times since getting it back, and never noticed them before. I know that Peter had switched the bolts from my old engine casing onto my new engine, as some of my ones were adonised gold, but there were still a few that were just the normal colour. I don't know if maybe he managed to snap a couple in the process of removing them from the old engine, and they fell into the belly pan and were forgotten and un-noticed, or if they fell out of somewhere on the bike recently. One has a couple of numbers on around the edge of it, but I don't have it with me, so can't tell you what they are.


I can't say off-hand, especially not without seeing them.  Now that you've ridden it a little, see if you can find any new "Seepages"anywhere.  Chances are that 2 bolts off the engine won't cause a "gush" of oil, more likely a weep or a leak.  

Download the service manual from Russtang (from this link: http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=877 ) and look at the info about the bolts (likely in the service info section)  It will likely tell you what the bolts will be for.   Seriously, this is a really helpful manual.  Download the Owner's manual from the same link.

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Now here's the stupid part.
Too busy worrying where the bolts had come from, I somehow managed to start putting diesel into my little bike, instead of unleaded petrol!!  :duh:


Believe it or not, this wouldn't have been as disasterous as you think.   Tiny bits of diesel won't hurt a gas engine, but it must be very dilute.  Put gas in a Diesel though and you can pretty much kiss the engine goodbye.

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As soon as I noticed, I stopped, went and payed for it, and pushed my bike off to the side. I had to take off the tank and pour everything out down the nearest drainer. What a waste of money! Then I had to fill it up again, with petrol this time! Thankfully, I managed to connect all the hoses properly, and it started no problem. It is now running the way it should, revving properly, and with the usual power. I can't believe I never even noticed I had taken the diesel nozzle instead of the petrol one! Mind you, I had a lot on my mind, being excited about my new job, and worried about those bolts.


Ok,.. so you had the tank off,... all you had to do is pop the air cleaner cover off and look at the filter and the airbox underneath.  How come you didn't?  You were 90% of the way there.  The air box is the black box that the 2 black and silver shrouds attach to.  ( Which is why they're referred to as air cleaner covers. :grin:)  The back of the tank rests on it  (closest to the seat and battery.)

There's a drawing of the air cleaner at this link:  http://www.mrcycles.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?category=Motorcycles&make=Suzuki&year=1991&fveh=2090

If you scroll down on that page it should show you "fig. 12" which is of the air cleaner assembly.  Surely you recognise this....  What I want you to do is remove the cover (#2) then lift out the foam filter (#3) and look through the mesh screen to see if there's any liquid in there.

There's not a lot further we can go til you check this out.  It's all guesses til then.   I'm hoping too that if we've guessed wrong, that you're not doing damage to the engine in the meantime.  

If you want to see the breather we've been talking about, pick "Cylinder head cover" from the list below the "Change Vehicle button".  This will show you "Fig 1" items 12, 13, and 7 comprise this breather.  It bolts onto the engine on top of the ORings (#8) that I mentioned.  The cylindrical protrusion on the left of #12 has a hose connected to it that goes to the air box, to dump anything it fills with, into the airbox.

This breather would have been available to you when you removed the tank as well.  

4 and 5 looks like the black bolts that you mentioned that you have one of that was loose.

Incidentally, right below that cylnder head cover, is where that picture that I posted, that showed the oil feeder tubes, comes in.
 
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Any idea where they could have come from? They could have just been there since the engine transplant, but I think I would have noticed them before.


It looks like the belly pan has a lip on it.  It could have held the bolts.  Best to ask Peter this one.

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Also, was the water in my petrol the cause of my running problem? It seems that it was, but I can't help but wonder if it could have been due to my oil guzzling problem. Maybe the airbox being full of oil (if it is?) was what was affecting it? The bike ran well for about 10 miles after getting water into the feul, but after stopping and starting, the problem occured. Was it just down to the watery petrol?


If it was the water, it shouldn't recur, unless you do the same thing again.  If it was the oil, it will recur, unless you check, and drain that airbox, and fix the breather problem.

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I didn't get a chance to go over and see peter today, or get pictures of the exhaust smoke, as the weather was so bad. I did, however, do my 100 mile oil top-up. It took about 270ml of oil. After 100 miles I'll see how much it takes. Hopefully it won't take so much next time, and even less the time after that, until settles to an appropriate rate.


An appropriate rate would be zero need for top up between changes.  You have 2 very minor leaks on the engine, it shouldn't be going anywhere.
stormi

Dita - 91 Bandit 400 - SOLD
Blue - 02 Hornet 919 - Perfect Gentleman
02 KTM 200 EXC - Sold
08 VFR800 - Lowered 1.2"
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Offline Coopz

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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2006, 06:37:24 PM »
Oh! That's the air air cleaner cover!  :duh:

The ammount of times I have seen that before whilst tinkering about with other things, and I still had no idea what it was!

Ok, I am seriously thinking about going out there just now and having a look at it. Even though it's pitch dark, freezing cold, and it's been raining on and off all day. And I don't have a shed/garage to work in, my bike just sits out in front of the house.

I'm going to do it, that way I will know if that's our problem or not. Like you say, we can't do much else until I check that. I have been asking mates of mine (one is a car mechanic, the other is a long time bike owner) but they haven't been as helpful as you. Oh, actually, I spoke to another car mechanic I know, and told him about it, and he said that if it is the piston rings, there's an additive you can get that you add to your oil, and it is supposed to help stop leaky seals/piston rings etc. So, if it does turn out to be the piston rings or valve seals or something, I could maybe look into getting some of this stuff to see if it helps the problem.

Anyway, I'm going out to check my air filter and things now.

Results will be posted once I've done!
Coopz
-Silencing Lambs Since October 31st 2006

Offline Coopz

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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2006, 08:26:08 PM »
Ok, thankfully, I managed it without too much trouble. The only trouble I had was trying to get the bike into a position where the outside light shone on it, trying to re-connect the vaccum tube thing, and when the stupid dog decided to wander through my pile of screws and managed to kick one into the grass.

I was kind of dissapointed to find that my airbox wasn't full of oil. It had the teeniest bit in the very bottom, but I know that's normal. I took out the spongey bit (air filter, right?) and it was a bit wet around the edges. The wetness seemed oily, but I guess that must be normal too. I couldn't figure out how to take off the metal grill (or even know if you could/should) but I was able to see through it and saw a tiny bit of liquid in the bottom. I'm guessing it was oil as I read on this board recently that a little bit of oil in the airbox is normal. There was a strong smell of petrol, but that was probably just down to the fact that I had just removed the petrol tank.

So, bang goes that theory!

I mentioned before that I was talking to a long time motorcyclist friend about my problems. I met him in the supermarket, and he was asking how the bike was running now, and I told him the latest. He thinks that it is either worn piston rings, or worn valve seals. We went outside, and I fired up the bike to let him see how it was running. Even with seeing the non oily exhaust and the plain white-ish smoke, he still thought it was worn piston rings. He told me just to keep topping up the oil until I get rid of the bike next feb (upgrading to a bigger bike).

What do you think? Should I just resign to the fact that my piston rings are worn/glazed and that I need to keep topping up the oil as long as I have the bike? GSXR400 racer reckons that if the piston rings are glazed, they won't sort themselves out no matter how much I thrash it.

Or can you think of anything else that might be wrong?

If it is the piston rings.... Is there anything I can do to fix it (without costing me an arm and a leg!)? There is that oil additive that supposedly fixes leaky piston seals, and gsxr400 racer suggested that buying his big bore kit would fix my problem. But I can't afford his kit (sorry mate!), so what else could I try besides the additive? Apparently I would have to replace the pistons/barrell, is that true? Could I not just replace the piston rings, or seals or something?
Coopz
-Silencing Lambs Since October 31st 2006

Offline Coopz

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« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2006, 09:37:04 PM »
By the way, I got a couple of quick videos of the exhaust smoke. I couldn't get and footage or pics of me riding it, as there was no-one else there, but hopefully they're good enough to let you see whats going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2RDR_r3NQ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmcnzrd3VaY

Sorry for the bad photography, I was at a bad angle. Lol.

EDIT:

Had to edit into this because I didn't want to make ANOTHER post. lol.

Just found these on ebay. Do you think it's worth it? And do you think it would fix my problem? That is, if it can't be fixed an easier way like I asked before.

Barrells
Pistons
Coopz
-Silencing Lambs Since October 31st 2006

Offline stormi

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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2006, 10:04:34 PM »
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Ok, thankfully, I managed it without too much trouble. The only trouble I had was trying to get the bike into a position where the outside light shone on it, trying to re-connect the vaccum tube thing, and when the stupid dog decided to wander through my pile of screws and managed to kick one into the grass.


Boy I hear that.  Luckily, we've learned to tie the one dog when we work on the bikes, and the older one couldn't care less anymore about the bikes.  I don't miss the days of working at the curb on the car or the bike.  Now we have a snazzy shed.  Movin' on up.   :lol:  In fact, in the 14 yrs I've been driving, I've had an actual garage to park/work in for 9 months of it.   The shed make sa big difference, but still is limited to summer and fall endevors. (sp?)

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I was kind of dissapointed to find that my airbox wasn't full of oil. It had the teeniest bit in the very bottom, but I know that's normal. I took out the spongey bit (air filter, right?) and it was a bit wet around the edges. The wetness seemed oily, but I guess that must be normal too. I couldn't figure out how to take off the metal grill (or even know if you could/should) but I was able to see through it and saw a tiny bit of liquid in the bottom. I'm guessing it was oil as I read on this board recently that a little bit of oil in the airbox is normal. There was a strong smell of petrol, but that was probably just down to the fact that I had just removed the petrol tank.


Damn.  I was really hoping that that was the problem.   Yes, the spongey bit is the filter.   The filter should be cleaned, and then oiled with filter oil, and replaced.  It should be damp, not soggy.

The metal grill -can- be removed.  It's a real pain in the @ss to get back in though.  This is useful for cleaning out the oil and such, but there's also a drain valve on the bottom of the airbox, to get the oil out.

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So, bang goes that theory!

I mentioned before that I was talking to a long time motorcyclist friend about my problems. I met him in the supermarket, and he was asking how the bike was running now, and I told him the latest. He thinks that it is either worn piston rings, or worn valve seals. We went outside, and I fired up the bike to let him see how it was running. Even with seeing the non oily exhaust and the plain white-ish smoke, he still thought it was worn piston rings. He told me just to keep topping up the oil until I get rid of the bike next feb (upgrading to a bigger bike).


Well, I wish I'd asked for the video first.  The reason that I asked for the video of you riding is for the bike to be under load.  Looking at your two videos, I think that looks like oil smoke.   That means that we know where the oil is going.  Out the pipe.  

In light of this info, I'd say that your supermarket friend may be right.  In that it's likely rings or valve seals.  

Now,.. here's the thing.  Rings and valve seals themselves are pretty inexpensive.  It's the installation of which is going to kill you.  I never like to see a bike "kludged" instead of fixing it.  (which is what you're doing by adding oil to it til you sell it)  Also, if you sell the bike to someone knowledgable, you're going to take a big hit on it financially if it's blowing oil.

The best thing you can do from here, to find out what's happening, is a compression test.  This requires a sparkplug wrench, and a compression tester.  

This may help you to determine where the problem is.  It may be just rings and vlaves, or the cylinders may need to be bored out, and larger pistons and rings fitted.  It would also mean that gxsr400racer was right, his big bore kit will fix the problem, unless it's "just" valve seals.  (Those are dirt cheap, but still a bit of a job.)

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What do you think? Should I just resign to the fact that my piston rings are worn/glazed and that I need to keep topping up the oil as long as I have the bike? GSXR400 racer reckons that if the piston rings are glazed, they won't sort themselves out no matter how much I thrash it.


I will never disagree with anything GXSR400Racer says about bikes. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know. :monkeymoon: I think the risk to the rest of the engine to "clean up" the rings by thrashing the bike isn't worth it.  You may just earn yourself a second hole in a second engine.

How many kms are on this engine?  

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Or can you think of anything else that might be wrong?

If it is the piston rings.... Is there anything I can do to fix it (without costing me an arm and a leg!)? There is that oil additive that supposedly fixes leaky piston seals, and gsxr400 racer suggested that buying his big bore kit would fix my problem. But I can't afford his kit (sorry mate!), so what else could I try besides the additive? Apparently I would have to replace the pistons/barrell, is that true? Could I not just replace the piston rings, or seals or something?


Absolutely, if the compression test checks out, then you can likely get away with just valve seals.  If it doesn't you may be able to do just the rings -if- the cylinders and pistons are not out of spec yet.  

You would typically not have to replace the cylinder block, you would have the cylinders bored out.  The pistons would be replaced with an over-sized piston set.

There are fuel additives that you can get ( like Lucas' Upper Cylinder treatment.)  I've used that on DIta, and gained a little gas milage as well.  That may help some, especially if it's something that's sticky with carbon that's allowing oil where it shouldn't be.  

Be -very- careful which oil additives you use, most are designed for cars, and may be very mean to the clutch.  

Have you considered just changing the oil to completely non-synthetic and seeing how the bike does on that?  If I recall correctly, synthetic oil has a smaller molecule, and therefore can slip past things that a "Regular" oil can't.  You just may find yourself not having nearly the problem that you do currently....  or possibly a slightly heavier weight?  The Owner's manual specifies acceptable oils.  (20W50 should be fine in the climate you ride in)
stormi

Dita - 91 Bandit 400 - SOLD
Blue - 02 Hornet 919 - Perfect Gentleman
02 KTM 200 EXC - Sold
08 VFR800 - Lowered 1.2"
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Offline Coopz

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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2006, 11:58:01 PM »
Ah well, at least we know that is definately the problem. Now, if only we could figure out exactly why it's burning oil! I'll look into the compression test thing you mentioned, and see what I can do. But even then, after finding out what it is, chances are that I probably won't get it fixed. (Unless I do it myself after learning some stuff at my new job!  :lol: ) I can't really afford to spend much more money on this bike, especially not now, I still owe £165 to Peter from the last load of things (new tyre etc etc...) If I need to go down the route of gsxr400racers kit, then I'll never be able to fix it. But if it is just seals or rings, then I might be able to get it sorted out at some point. Meh, I'll see once I get the compression test done (If I can).

The engine has (apparently) 17k miles on it. Which is less than my last engine!

I dunno if it would be the valve seals, as peter cleaned all of the valves, and made sure they were all perfect, so the seals should be good too, right?

I'll be doing my 100 mile top up again tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes. For the last couple of topups I have been using a non-synthetic oil. Good idea about using a heavier oil too, I'll carry on with what I'm using just now for another few hundred miles, and then try a heavier one to see if I can see any difference. I'm also going to see if I can find any oil or feul additives that may fix my problem, and see if they are any help. Hopefully I can fix it wothout having to go taking the engine apart.

Thanks for the links to the owners manual and the service manual, by the way. I read all of the owners manual, and found out some things that I should be able to use in the future. Was a really helpful read!
Coopz
-Silencing Lambs Since October 31st 2006

Offline gsxr400 racer

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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2006, 01:09:42 AM »
You can try new rings a cross hatch and valve seals if that doesnt work you know you need the bores worked and if your not gonna keep the bike i agree my kit is expensive but none the less cheaper than TTS's big bore kit! Mainly the kit is for the peeps that just love there bike or that race.
cheers
Jay
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
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Offline Farre

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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2006, 11:15:38 AM »
heh, i have oil consumption too... thinking it's the same as Coopz, i've been incredibly stupid and didn't look at the oil inspection window for a while and when i topped it up (directly with 15W40 for cars, ...we'll see), 1.4litres i had to pour inside..

But i never had an oil light coming up and the bike still runs strong. 45k km's on the tach.

Perhaps in due time i'll go for the bigbore kit, but still waiting for the cash. I just started working this month, beer with me  :roll:  :grin:
Alex
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Offline stormi

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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2006, 03:13:59 PM »
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Ah well, at least we know that is definately the problem. Now, if only we could figure out exactly why it's burning oil! I'll look into the compression test thing you mentioned, and see what I can do. But even then, after finding out what it is, chances are that I probably won't get it fixed. (Unless I do it myself after learning some stuff at my new job!  :lol: ) I can't really afford to spend much more money on this bike, especially not now, I still owe £165 to Peter from the last load of things (new tyre etc etc...) If I need to go down the route of gsxr400racers kit, then I'll never be able to fix it. But if it is just seals or rings, then I might be able to get it sorted out at some point. Meh, I'll see once I get the compression test done (If I can).


All of the work that you need on that bike, you can do.  If you downloaded the service manual, all you need is some decent tools, and some patience.  We can help you with any questions you have, or friends can help you with anythings you have trouble with that may be hard to describe to us.

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The engine has (apparently) 17k miles on it. Which is less than my last engine!


I bet it sat for a while then.  I would guess valve seals myself.  Of course, it's just a guess, not being able to see the engine.   At 47K kms (about 30K miles) the honing ( cross hatch that gsxr400racer mentions) was still visible, and the rings and cylinders showed no signs of wear.   I did, however, have to do the valve seals.

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I dunno if it would be the valve seals, as peter cleaned all of the valves, and made sure they were all perfect, so the seals should be good too, right?


Not necessarily.  He could have cleaned the valves and seats, but not checked/replaced the valve seals.   I would hope that he would have, but he may not have.

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I'll be doing my 100 mile top up again tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes. For the last couple of topups I have been using a non-synthetic oil. Good idea about using a heavier oil too, I'll carry on with what I'm using just now for another few hundred miles, and then try a heavier one to see if I can see any difference. I'm also going to see if I can find any oil or feul additives that may fix my problem, and see if they are any help. Hopefully I can fix it wothout having to go taking the engine apart.


How did the top up go?  If the problem is valve seals, or rings, you won't make the problem go away entirely with an additive.  You may make it less of a problem though.  

There's a possibility that "Sea Foam" may work, we've used that to winterize all of the bikes this year, and many on this board swear by it.  It professes to fix a lot of problems...

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Thanks for the links to the owners manual and the service manual, by the way. I read all of the owners manual, and found out some things that I should be able to use in the future. Was a really helpful read!


No problem.  I always like to know one of Dita's brothers and sisters are being taken care of.  Honestly, I know they're starter bikes, but they're such good bikes that tend to take such a beating as new riders learn to take care of them.  I like to know that at least some of them are cared for.

Sit down with the service manual and flip through it.  You'll see that a lot of the jobs aren't as scary as they look.  Working on a bike is not rocket science, it just takes a little logic and lots of patience.
stormi

Dita - 91 Bandit 400 - SOLD
Blue - 02 Hornet 919 - Perfect Gentleman
02 KTM 200 EXC - Sold
08 VFR800 - Lowered 1.2"
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17 Husky TC85 converted to 105

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Offline stormi

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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2006, 03:15:09 PM »
Quote
You can try new rings a cross hatch and valve seals if that doesnt work you know you need the bores worked and if your not gonna keep the bike i agree my kit is expensive but none the less cheaper than TTS's big bore kit! Mainly the kit is for the peeps that just love there bike or that race.
cheers
Jay


Hey Jay,.. I wondered when you were going to show up!   Felt like I was holding the fort on my own here.  :stickpoke:  I was trying hard not to steer the boy wrong.
stormi

Dita - 91 Bandit 400 - SOLD
Blue - 02 Hornet 919 - Perfect Gentleman
02 KTM 200 EXC - Sold
08 VFR800 - Lowered 1.2"
17 KTM RC390
17 Husky TC85 converted to 105

Electrosport Charging System Test - it really works

Offline gsxr400 racer

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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2006, 03:52:49 PM »
you were doing a great job :beers:
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
has been a wera expert #610 lol

Offline stormi

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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2006, 09:40:52 PM »
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you were doing a great job :beers:


Now that IS high praise.  :beers:  Thanks  :grin:
stormi

Dita - 91 Bandit 400 - SOLD
Blue - 02 Hornet 919 - Perfect Gentleman
02 KTM 200 EXC - Sold
08 VFR800 - Lowered 1.2"
17 KTM RC390
17 Husky TC85 converted to 105

Electrosport Charging System Test - it really works

Offline Coopz

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Yay!...ish
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2006, 09:51:51 PM »
I went to all that trouble of taking off the airbox cover. If only I'd known it'd be getting ripped off by the road a few days later, I would have waited!

Thanks for all the help you guys, you've been great. Especially you stormi. You've taught me a lot.  :thanks:
Coopz
-Silencing Lambs Since October 31st 2006