Author Topic: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...  (Read 147885 times)

Offline tubular

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2014, 01:35:11 PM »
Thanks Themis,
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.
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How's your Bandit?  We know who was the first one to fuel inject a B4 (I have to settle with being the first in the U.S).

I am running fuel control only. Never intended to do ignition control and actually I am more than happy the way it runs -especially after the intank fuel pump installation- and use it on a daily basis.

So you have the first B4 with fully computerized engine control management (fuel + ignition) system!  :thumb:

Offline bdouvill

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #136 on: November 18, 2014, 08:56:14 AM »
Over the last few days I'd been having a bit of trouble getting the Microsquirt ECU to "play nice" with the Suzuki OEM trigger wheel + pulse generator, all of my test results and data-logs looked horrible.   But tonight I had a sudden brain-storm and figured out what the Microsquirt wanted.  I made a small change to the teeth of the trigger wheel.  I took a dremel and cut the width of the teeth down from 13mm to 6mm which resulted in a pulse profile that the Microsquirt loves.
If I understood well, you had to cut the 5 remaining teeth from their original width to something narrower. Is that correct?

Thanks for sharing your experiment anyway. This is so interesting  :thumb:
Benoit.
Bandit 400 1992, 1st bike.

Offline nsc

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #137 on: November 18, 2014, 11:22:53 PM »
Over the last few days I'd been having a bit of trouble getting the Microsquirt ECU to "play nice" with the Suzuki OEM trigger wheel + pulse generator, all of my test results and data-logs looked horrible.   But tonight I had a sudden brain-storm and figured out what the Microsquirt wanted.  I made a small change to the teeth of the trigger wheel.  I took a dremel and cut the width of the teeth down from 13mm to 6mm which resulted in a pulse profile that the Microsquirt loves.
If I understood well, you had to cut the 5 remaining teeth from their original width to something narrower. Is that correct?
Thanks for sharing your experiment anyway. This is so interesting  :thumb:

and also didn't that just messed up the balancing that you did previously?
I am astounded from your work
:beers:

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2014, 12:03:46 AM »

Quote
and also didn't that just messed up the balancing that you did previously?
I am astounded from your work
:beers:

Good question.

I took that effect into consideration.

When I cut the 5 trigger wheel teeth down from 13mm to 6mm I didn't have to worry about the dynamic balance effect that 4 of the teeth would have because they sit opposite each other on the wheel, so their change cancels each other out. 

I only had to worry about the effect of the weight removed from the one tooth that sits opposite of the "missing tooth". 

When I cut off the excess 7mm of material from that tooth (the one that sits opposite from the "missing tooth") I used the removed piece as a template for the removal of the same amount of material from the opposite side of the wheel.  It was "eyeball" work but I think I got it right and the result should be that my trigger wheel is still well balanced.

Aside from the question of dynamic balance, there is a larger, overarching issue that should be considered.  The Bandits trigger wheel is mounted to a heavy disk of metal and together they serve as flywheel mass, which carries and preserves the engine's rotational energy.  When you lighten an an engine's flywheel it makes the engine easier to clutch-stall because it has less intertia.

Hopefully I haven't taken too much weight out of the assembly.  I think it's only about 35 to 40 grams lighter.

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #139 on: November 19, 2014, 12:04:05 AM »
Quote
If I understood well, you had to cut the 5 remaining teeth from their original width to something narrower. Is that correct?

Thanks for sharing your experiment anyway. This is so interesting

Sometimes I don't know how much technical information I should put into my posts, but if you're interested in hearing about it here's more...

Let me know when I reach the "Too Much Information" zone (obviously I find all of this extremely interesting or I wouldn't be doing it as a hobby).

The Bandit's original equipment ignition system is a product of Japan's Denso Corporation (and its subsidiaries and suppliers).  Denso's approach to ignition control during the '80s and '90s was a pretty unique and rapidly evolving one.  The Bandit 400's system represents a sort of "half way" point in the automotive/motorcycle transition from the old-world of Mechanical Points and Condensers to the current world of fully digitized, ECU controlled ignition and fuel injection.

So when viewed from the perspective of today's world the Bandit's early '90s Denso ignition control system seems a bit strange or maybe just quaint.  The part of this "strangeness" that was affecting me a couple days ago was the width of the teeth on the Denso trigger wheel. 

Modern ignition control systems use one of three methods to sense a trigger wheel:
 
1. a VR sensor (VR stands for "Variable Reluctance").  A VR sensor is a simple "piece of metal passing by a magnet" type of sensor.  A VR sensor is unpowered, it generates current for its signal simply by the metal trigger wheel teeth passing by the permanent magnet contained within the sensor. 

2. a Hall Effect sensor, which is basically a more modern version of the VR sensor.  It is a powered sensor and it has a built in circuit to interpret the magnetic effect of trigger wheel teeth passing by it, then its circuitry sends a simple "square-wave" signal (0 volts to 5 volts) off to the ECU,

3. an Optical sensor, which is exactly what it sounds like.

The Bandit 400's Denso system uses a VR sensor, which is what the overwhelming majority of today's systems use, but the circuitry in its CDI box was apparently designed to interpret the passing of the trigger wheel teeth in a very different way than what has become the norm (in current times, i.e. the year 2000 and onward).

Here's a breakdown of what happens between the trigger wheel teeth and the VR sensor:

As a tooth on the trigger wheel approaches the VR sensor it induces a positive (+) signal that becomes stronger until it peaks just as the leading edge of the tooth reaches the sensor, then the signal begins to descend until the tooth is centered across the sensor.  It is exactly at this point, when the trigger wheel tooth is exactly centered with the sensor, that the signal "crosses zero" and enters the negative (-) range.  As the tooth continues past the VR sensor the signal tails off to almost nothing until the next tooth arrives at the sensor.  It is this "crossing zero" effect that the Microsquirt uses to count the tooth.

For those of you who appreciate the math behind things, here's a breakdown of the actual timing involved in my Bandit's trigger wheel:

The Bandit 400 can rev to 13,500 RPM.  There are 60,000 milliseconds in a minute.  So 60,000 divided by 13,500 equals 4.45 milliseconds for each 360 degrees of engine rotation.  There are 6 teeth on my Bandit's trigger wheel (5 real teeth and 1 that's missing but the Microsquirt knows about) at redline engine speed (13,500 RPMs) there's a tooth passing by the VR sensor every .74 millisecond.  Or instead of .74 milliseconds, since there's 1000 microseconds in a millisecond you can say a tooth passes by the sensor every 740 microseconds.  Or you could go the other direction in magnitude and say that there's a tooth passing the sensor every .00074 seconds.

The thing that really amazes me is even at that speed my Microsquirt ECU isn't working hard.  At those same RPMs it could easily handle a trigger wheel with a lot more teeth (I'm impressed, but I'm a complete nerd that way).

But, back to my problem with the Bandit's trigger wheel...

Today it's apparently "industry standard" to have trigger wheel teeth that are approximately the same width as the permanent magnet in the VR sensor.  This matching of tooth-to-sensor sizes makes for a very clean and definite "tooth passing by" signal and this is the sort of signal that modern ECUs are designed to receive and interpret and, most importantly, this is what my Microsquirt's circuitry is expecting to see.

It appears that the Bandit's "state of the 1990s" Denso CDI box circuitry depends on other portions or events in the VR sensor's electrical output for information, or maybe it is simply immune to the possible side-effects of a really wide tooth.

During cranking (under the electrical starter-motor motivation) an engine doesn't maintain a constant speed.  Instead, the compression stroke of individual cylinders causes it to go through a "slow-down-speed-up" cycle. 

My Microsquirt was having trouble correctly interpreting the trigger wheel teeth during cranking, which is a complete show-stopper.  The Microsquirt was double and triple counting the teeth that were passing by the VR sensor during the moments when the compression slowdown-speedup was happening.  And with the Bandit's inline 4-cylinder engine a piston reaches TDC on a compression stroke every 180 degrees of engine rotation.

If the Microsquirt cannot properly interpret the trigger wheel teeth it won't be able to "achieve sync" which means it can't match the trigger wheel pattern it is sensing to the trigger wheel pattern definition that I've programmed into it.  When this fails to happen the Microsquirt will not command the ignition coils to fire or the injectors to squirt fuel.  The engine will not start.

Here's the part that I feel dumb about: The MegaManual, the main document which outlines the "how to" of do-it-yourself fuel injection, says that the trigger wheel teeth should be approximately the same width as the VR sensor.  I don't know why I ignored this directive, it was right there in black and white.  I'd read the MegaManual several times over so this information was in my head (somewhere) the whole time I was building my Bandit.

But for some unknown reason I ignored the information until I reached an impasse.  Then a couple of days ago, when I was talking to my brother on the phone about the issue, I suddenly realized what I needed to do.

I went back down to the garage, took the left-side cover off of the Bandit and cut the teeth down from 13mm to 6mm without taking the trigger wheel off of the engine.  I carefully covered everything with plastic wrap and aluminum foil so the grinding/cutting debris wouldn't get into the engine and oil.  Then I put the cover back on and when I tried the starter the engine fired right up.

For the "visual learners" I'll put up a couple pictures of the trigger wheel, both before the tooth modification and after.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:19:14 AM by greg737 »

Offline vintagemilano

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #140 on: November 19, 2014, 12:13:49 AM »
Awesome write up
1993 GSF400
Cranbrook, BC, Canada

Offline bdouvill

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2014, 04:01:20 AM »
For the "visual learners" I'll put up a couple pictures of the trigger wheel, both before the tooth modification and after.

This is exactly what I was going to ask you  :grin:
Benoit.
Bandit 400 1992, 1st bike.

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #142 on: November 19, 2014, 02:33:15 PM »
A few days ago, before my first successful start-up, I rolled the Bandit out into the sunlight for an attempt at some video of the project.  I wasn't going for anything artistic or exciting (unless you're a Do-It-Yourself fuel injection nerd).

This bit of video focuses on the engine's left-side cover (It's from before the recent tooth modification from 13mm wide to 6mm).

Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%202_zps4ghxwm5v.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 12:15:33 AM by greg737 »

Offline Squishy

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #143 on: November 19, 2014, 02:36:37 PM »
A few days ago, before my first successful start-up, I rolled the Bandit out into the sunlight for an attempt video.  I wasn't going for anything artistic or exciting (unless you're a Do-It-Yourself fuel injection nerd).

This bit of video focuses on the engine's left-side cover (It's from before the recent tooth modification from 13mm wide to 6mm).

http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%202_zps4ghxwm5v.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
Can't you just rotate the crank manually without oil?

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #144 on: November 19, 2014, 02:52:59 PM »
Quote
Can't you just rotate the crank manually without oil?

What would rotating the crank manually accomplish?  Beyond simply verifying the mechanical alignment?

I'm already using the OEM trigger wheel, I already know that it is aligned properly on the crankshaft.  It has a Woodruff keyway on the crankshaft and trigger wheel to insure alignment.

And, yes, I did rotate the engine by hand to insure that the #1 piston was at top-dead-center when the timing marks aligned.

But that's just the first step in "timing" an engine from the beginning.  All that turning an engine by hand can tell you is that the mechanical items are properly aligned.  Now you have to move on to the interface between these mechanical components and the bike's electrical system, which is my Microsquirt ECU.

After you've installed the trigger wheel properly so that the timing arrows physically line up (the arrow on the trigger wheel tooth and the arrow that is cast into the crankcase), you have to program the Microsquirt ECU with the pattern of the trigger wheel (which is "6 minus 1" on my project Bandit). 

Now here's the tricky part: You also have to program in your estimate of the angular difference between when the first tooth after the missing tooth gap passes the VR sensor and the moment of top-dead-center for cylinder #1.

Once that is programmed into the Microsquirt you connect up a timing strobe light to the #1 cylinder sparkplug HT lead and begin cranking the engine.  You watch the trigger wheel and see where the timing strobe "freezes" the wheel on each rotation.  If you don't get a perfect alignment between the timing marks at the strobe flash you have to go back into the Microsquirt and program in a revised estimate of the angular difference between when the first tooth after the missing tooth gap passes the VR sensor and the moment of top-dead-center for cylinder #1.

Repeat the process until you get it spot-on.

Example from my work: My original estimate was that the angle was 300 degrees.  But this turned out to be wrong.  After a bit of trial and error I discovered the correct angle was 270 degrees.  Now my engine is perfectly timed (basic timing) and ready to tune.

The reason my original estimate was off by 30 degrees is that it was just an "educated guess" made by eye-balling the approximate location of the VR sensor mounting in the engine cover and the crankcase casting timing mark.  I really didn't expect to get it perfect on the first try.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:02:21 PM by greg737 »

Offline Squishy

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #145 on: November 19, 2014, 03:26:00 PM »
So I guess the ignition coil doesn't fire when you turn it over manually with ignition on?

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #146 on: November 19, 2014, 03:47:45 PM »
Quote
So I guess the ignition coil doesn't fire when you turn it over manually with ignition on?

No.

Even with the original equipment Denso Corp. ignition control there has to be electrical power and trigger wheel pattern recognition before the CDI will fire a coil.

The Microsquirt operates similarly.  When you switch the key to on and press the starter button the Microsquirt allows the engine to rotate through three (3) full 360 degree rotations before it will fire a coil.  During those three "dead" rotations the Microsquirt is comparing the VR sensor input pattern from the trigger wheel with the trigger wheel definition that I entered into its firmware.

If, after these three rotations, the received patterns match the pattern definition in the Microsquirt's memory it will begin firing coils and commanding the injectors to fuel the engine.

Only then can you use the timing strobe light to verify that the commanded top-dead-center cylinder #1 angle is correct.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:52:29 PM by greg737 »

Offline Squishy

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #147 on: November 19, 2014, 04:01:17 PM »
Ah, I didn't know that.
I thought that (well at least for the old Denso ignitor) it would just fire whenever it got a signal from the wheel. Didn't think it had pattern recognition, being 20 years old and all.
You mentioned it for the Microsquirt though, so ye makes sense.

Anyway keep up the video's! :)

Offline andrewsw

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #148 on: November 19, 2014, 08:10:13 PM »
Awesome stuff greg, keep going.

About the signal duration and frequency, what chip runs the MicroSquirt? I was playing with the idea of doing some monitoring of the b4 engine with an Atmel based microcontroller (the teensy, if you care) and back of the envelope calcs suggested it was well within the chip's onboard ADC capabilities, but I've since lost those calcs (as things on the backs envelopes tend to go).

It seemed to me at the time that it would be fairly easy to produce power curves based on the first derivative of the engine RPM for doing some carb tuning without the need for a dyno. anywho... that project died the grisly death of not enough time...

A

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #149 on: November 19, 2014, 11:53:48 PM »
Quote
About the signal duration and frequency, what chip runs the MicroSquirt?

The Microsquirt's Serial Circuit is a MAX3221

The Microsquirt's Variable Reluctance (VR) interface circuit is a Maxim MAX992x integrated circuit.

I don't know much about this level of the system, down at the individual circuits.  I just know that it gets the job done.

Quote
It seemed to me at the time that it would be fairly easy to produce power curves based on the first derivative of the engine RPM for doing some carb tuning without the need for a dyno. anywho... that project died the grisly death of not enough time...

The piece of equipment that I would recommend to anyone who wants to do some serious carb tuning would be the Innovate Motorsports LC-2 wideband oxygen sensor controller.  Of course this would require the installation of an exhaust bung and a Bosch 5-wire wideband oxygen sensor.  Back in this thread I've got some pictures of my exhaust header with the bung and sensor installed.

Here's a few seconds of video that shows the completed installation of the bung and sensor.  You'll notice that the Bosch oxygen sensor protrudes into the space that is normally occupied by the Bandit's center-stand pivot points.  I had to remove the center-stand and grind the pivot points off of the frame to accommodate the sensor installation.

Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%205_zpsbb9lrzt1.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0

I also had to remove the center stand from my first fuel injection conversion project bike (the Kawasaki EX250) so it wasn't a tough decision to do the same thing to the Bandit.  I've never missed having the center stand on the Kawasaki at all.  I have a Pit Bull stand for when I'm working on the bike in the garage.

There's nothing like getting instant feedback on the engine's air/fuel ratios.  The LC-2 can also perform datalogging when connected to a laptop computer so you could work on the power curves from a different angle.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 12:30:00 AM by greg737 »