Author Topic: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!  (Read 12840 times)

Offline Squishy

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Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« on: August 13, 2012, 10:01:49 AM »
Hey guys.

Today I noticed a rattle coming from the engine area. It's not constant, but sometimes(!) happens when I let go of the throttle or apply throttle at low RPM.
The problem is that it doesn't happen all the time, I can't reproduce it.
My first guess would be the cam chain, however the b400 has an automatic chain tensioner?
I also ruled out the drive chain; when the rattle appeared I quickly pressed the killswitch and pulled the clutch and the sound immediately disappeared. I also haven't heard the above 3000rpm.

The rattle sounds like something irony is loose and vibrates against something else irony. The rattle only lasts for a couple of seconds then disappears.

Help! :( I'd rather not tear apart my whole engine (have never done this before). What else could it be?

Thanks
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 04:48:17 PM by Squishy »

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 12:22:18 PM »
I managed to reproduce the rattle and record it:
The microhpone is recording above the engine head, under the tank.
The rattle starts at about 0:19 seconds (and returns/disappears several times during the recording)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22072961/MF/ratel.wav
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 12:35:55 PM by Squishy »

Offline phoenix

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 01:31:45 PM »
Maybe it's just my computer, but I wasn't able to see a video or hear audio on your link. 

There is an automatic chain tensioner for the cam chain.  I have heard of them going bad occasionally in that they don't hold tension on the chain properly during rapid rpm transitions.

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 01:42:44 PM »
Maybe it's just my computer, but I wasn't able to see a video or hear audio on your link. 

There is an automatic chain tensioner for the cam chain.  I have heard of them going bad occasionally in that they don't hold tension on the chain properly during rapid rpm transitions.
hm it's a regular .wav even works in windows media player for me.
anyway i opened the engine and the cam chain is super tight. I doubt it can cause a rattle. Or can it still rattle because of a defective tensioner?
Ps. Anyone have any tips on a tool to adjust the valve clearance? Thanks

Offline phoenix

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 02:18:30 PM »
Like I said, may just be my computer. 

Should just need a wrench, a flat head screwdriver, and a set of feeler gauges to adjust the valves.  Sorry, I can't think of the wrench size off the top of my head.

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 02:35:01 PM »
Like I said, may just be my computer. 

Should just need a wrench, a flat head screwdriver, and a set of feeler gauges to adjust the valves.  Sorry, I can't think of the wrench size off the top of my head.
my smallest wrench ifs 4mm and too big

Offline pmackie

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 05:32:57 AM »
Hey Squishy

Yup...don't likel the sound of that. It does sound somewhat like a loose cam chain, but could also be a bunch of other things:

1. Check all the exhaust pipe bolts, especially those that attach the exhaust to the engine,
2. Check for loose engine mounts and bolts.
3. Check the starter and alternator mounts

Does it go away when you pull the clutch in with the engine running?
Paul
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Leo Vince Ex & Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
32 years in the Fuel/lubes industry(Retired)

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 07:43:56 AM »
Hey Squishy

Yup...don't likel the sound of that. It does sound somewhat like a loose cam chain, but could also be a bunch of other things:

1. Check all the exhaust pipe bolts, especially those that attach the exhaust to the engine,
2. Check for loose engine mounts and bolts.
3. Check the starter and alternator mounts

Does it go away when you pull the clutch in with the engine running?
1. I did a quick check before but will check again
2. Already checked engine mounts
3. Haven't checked those. Can't check for another week (holiday)

The sound does not disappear with clutch engaged..

Thanks!

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 11:08:10 AM »
Okay, some days later.
Checked the valves. Some are slightly off but I doubt this can cause the sound. When valve clearance is wrong it should always make a rattle, right?
I checked all mounts and all 4 exhaust pipe mounts, checked starter and alternator mounts. Everything seems to be solid.

I haven't put everything together as I'm still waiting for gaskets. So in the meantime;
How do I check if the automatic tensioner still works? Does it have "teeth" so I can check whether it's at its last teeth? Can it get stuck? The manual is vague and only mentions I can reduce the tension by turning the bolt.

Finally, how tight is the chain supposed to be? Mine hardly has 0.5mm slack.

Thanks

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 03:00:15 PM »
Bump.. Still haven't figured it out.
How do I check whether my automatic tensioner still works? Or whether it's at the end and can't tension any further?





Thanks
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 03:10:10 PM by Squishy »

Offline bullet5

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 05:36:28 PM »
Right, if you have clear access to the tensioner this shouldn't be too hard. You need to remove the rubber bung at the back of the tensioner, then insert a screwdriver to hold the screw inside in position. Don't turn the screw left or right (you may need a little helper to hold this for you).

Next undo the two allen screws. The tensioner unit will slowly push it's way out, but remember not to let the screwdriver turn or the screw turn.

Once the unit is out of the bike you can let the screwdriver turn, but make sure it stays on the screw head. This will tell you if you have any more travel in the unit, and/or if the spring inside is broken.

If all is well the tensioner will want to push outwards and spin the screwdriver with a fair bit of force.

To refit the unit you need to screw the "pusher" all the way back into the unit (you'll see what I'm on about when you remove it). Now you need to keep the tension on the spring with your screwdriver as you line the unit back up with the engine, and bolt it back in position. Now let the screwdriver turn and the tensioner unwind :thumb:

If it doesnt' start turning the screwdriver by itself give it a little hand as you may have backed the screw out enough to get it a little tight.

Again you'll understand what I mean when you have a go at it :beers:


Hope this helps and I'm sorry if it's a bit vague.
Bullet5. :grin:

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2012, 05:55:19 PM »
Thanks. So there is no "teeth" like some other bikes where it skips to the next one until there's no more teeth?
Before I do this... wouldn't my chain be loose if the tensioner wasn't working properly? The chain seems really tight (max 1mm play).. this is OK right?
Also won't I need a new gasket for the tensioner?

thanks!!

Offline bullet5

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2012, 06:31:57 PM »
Yup this is what it looks like:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUZUKI-BANDIT-GSF-400-GSF400-1991-1992-91-92-CAM-CHAIN-TENSIONER-CHAIN-BLADES-/150870786637?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item232099824d

No teeth are used, it's just a wound up spring inside that can snap. It is possible to open it up and fix it but it requires some work :thumb:

No you don't need a new gasket for the tensioner aslong as you are careful removing it.

And it depends on where you are judging this "slack" If you think about it, the only place in your engine there will be slack is between the bottom cam chain sprocket burried deep in depths of the engine and the rear (inlet) cam. You can't judge the tension of the chain by simply pulling up/down on the chain between the inlet and outlet cam sprockets. :wink:

Bullet5.

Offline Squishy

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2012, 06:38:31 PM »
Yup this is what it looks like:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUZUKI-BANDIT-GSF-400-GSF400-1991-1992-91-92-CAM-CHAIN-TENSIONER-CHAIN-BLADES-/150870786637?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item232099824d

No teeth are used, it's just a wound up spring inside that can snap. It is possible to open it up and fix it but it requires some work :thumb:

No you don't need a new gasket for the tensioner aslong as you are careful removing it.

And it depends on where you are judging this "slack" If you think about it, the only place in your engine there will be slack is between the bottom cam chain sprocket burried deep in depths of the engine and the rear (inlet) cam. You can't judge the tension of the chain by simply pulling up/down on the chain between the inlet and outlet cam sprockets. :wink:

Bullet5.
Hm.. Well how else would I know whether my cam chain is worn (=too long) and I need a new one? My 400 has done 60000KM btw.
The sprocket doesn't look worn at all

Offline bullet5

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Re: Help! Sudden rattle from engine?!
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2012, 08:16:24 PM »
The sprockets are tough as old nails, they aren't going anywhere fast :motorsmile:

The chain stretches as it gets older, so the only real way to check if it's within limits is to accuratly measure the distance between a set number of pins (the distance and number of pins will be specified in the manual for your year bike).

Hope this helps,
Bullet5.