Author Topic: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.  (Read 30186 times)

Offline LowRyter

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 09:46:30 PM »
I've got an advancer on mine.   $30 from Dale.
John L

1998 Red Suzuki GSF-1200S
1998 Red & Cream Moto Guzzi V11 EV
2001 Greenie Moto Guzzi V11 Sport

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 10:12:53 PM »
Oh yeah forgot about that as it came with the Kit I bought from Dale. It really helps the throttle response and possible a HP or two in the Mid-range. Dales recomended settings were way off on my bike, so I fixed it myself but if you want super duper tech support his $150 kit is hard to beat but adds another $150 on to the stage 1 cost. Probably %90 of the time his recommended settings are spot on so basically plug and play and Dale's a good guy to work with.

I think LowRyter made a good suggestion about the one Barnett clutch spring. It's not super imperative right now, but it might be a good idea to source one out eventually.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 04:50:40 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2012, 04:07:33 PM »
UPDATE:

Well after a few days of riding its starting to act up. I have some surging going on around 3k-5k. 1st and 2nd gear feel pretty terrible with easy throttle, real jerky like a hard miss, Its better with more throttle buts still feel a miss. I am at 3 1-2 turns out on the pilots. It smells real rich. Any advice?

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2012, 04:46:05 PM »
Back the pilots down to where you thought they were good at(3 1/4?). Could be crud in the floats getting swirled up and blocking the pilots. How does the inside of the tank look? Is there rust particles in there? It might be a good idea to take the outside carb float bowls off just to see if any shit is floating around in there. I'm assuming you're using fresh gas correct?

If the inside of the tank is a bit rusty, fine particles of rust will eventually work there way down and temporarily block the pilots. Hence the jerkyness. You may have to bite the bullet and pull the carbs and take a fine wire and clean all the jets. With it sitting that long there could be a varnish buildup in there or rust particles. If there is rust, maybe buy a fuel filter at least for a few months to catch all the shit that builds up when the bike is left for so long. If you wanted to you could drain the tank and remove the petcock and take a look at the filter to see if it's blocked with rust particles, that's a sure sign that some of the finer stuff will make it down to the carbs. You will see what looks like brown dirt in the carbs float bowls.

Even my bike which is fairly new and the inside looks immaculate still has a teeny amount of rust particle build up in the float bowls last time I took them off a month ago. The rust particles are finer than sand but if enough get swirled up when driving around the vacuum of the jets will suck them up and temporarily disrupt fuel flow enough to be felt. Pull the outside bowls and have a look, that way your not pulling the whole carb assembly. If you want to be lazy just drain the bowls with the drain screws which will clear the crap out of there. Open the drain screws really wide to create a large enough hole for the shit to flow out and maybe put it on prime for a few secs on each bowl. That will flush out alot of the crap.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 05:00:15 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2012, 04:54:30 PM »
The tank is good. I have been through the carbs and cleaned everything, checked floats etc. I think I might be expecting too much, I have only put on about 100 miles total on the bike, maybe just riding it more and running a few tanks through will help cure some problems. I am gonna turn the screws in before I ride home and see what that does.

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2012, 05:01:33 PM »
Since it was running fine a couple of days ago I think it's just choking on the last bits of crap from being sitting for so long, it's the worst thing you can do to a bike. Could be some bits of rust broke off or varnish buildup in the jets. Putting in a little seafoam through a couple of tanks of gas might help alot. I don't think it's anything serious it's just clearing it's throat  :grin: Put a tank or two of regular instead of mid-grade or premium through it. It doesn't have enough compression to really use premium and regular gas has a lot of throughput at the pumps so there is less shit floating around in it and will generally be fresher than the higher octane stuff. I have an advancer on mine and I only have to go to mid-grade but it will still run on regular when not hot out. The lower octane stuff is more volatile so it will burn a bit better when you are trying to run some gas and seafoam through the fuel system.  

If you want to help clean the pilots out rev up high in second or third then let the engine slow the bike down by engine compression with a closed throttle, it will really suck on those pilots which may help clear them out a bit. This weekend if you have time go for a nice long highway ride. If the gas is questionable keep topping the tank up as you drive to get as much good gas in there as possible.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 05:20:06 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline locky

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2012, 01:14:32 AM »
I have the same bike and it sounds to me like you need to replace and bleed your clutch's master cylinders fluid and for the carbs check the emulsion tubes with a good magnifying  glass (the tubes the needle jets slide in).My bike was doing the same thing and I replaced all the jets but still had the same problem till I replaced the tubes.You should sync your carbs and set the float heights also to get it running perfect.Use your search engine and you'll find everything about both on the net....
  Good luck.....

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2012, 01:26:45 AM »
Welcome to the board locky! He already got the clutch working well which is a bonus and had the bike running well as well. It just started to act up again which tell's us it's just choking off the little bit's of crap or bad gas thats left over. Unless the bowls are full of crud it's nothing a couple of tanks full of fresh gas can't cure with a little seafoam to melt any varnishing on the jets. It a common problem when bikes are left to rot, but easily fixable. He only just got it so he hasn't done a long highway blast which is probably needed.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2012, 08:19:54 PM »
UPDATE:

Well got to do some investigating today. I found that it is definitely #3 missing. After warmed up and idling I took the temps off the pipes and 1,2, and 4 are within a few degrees of one another, 3 is a couple hundred off. I pulled the #3 and #4 plugs to look and this is what I saw.

#3 on the left.



I switched the plugs when I put them back in, and I found that it makes no difference in temp, #3 is still low. One thing I did find out though is when I give it a little choke #3 starts to come up to temp, I'm not sure what that means. I'm sure I should pull the carbs again to give it another go at cleaning but I don't trust the o-rings and gasket to last for anymore investigative surgeries and the damn rebuild kits cost a fortune.

I also shot a terrible video so you can hear how its running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1CXFDNewd0&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:58:00 AM by mpatrick »

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2012, 01:35:54 AM »
You pic didn't post showing off the plugs which would help.

I'm assuming you took the carbs apart and made sure the float height is all the same? If so you may have to take the carbs out and take a look at number 3 carb, it could be gummed up with rust flecks or varnish. Take the pilot and mainjet right out of there soak them in brake cleaner then take a small wire and work it through the hole in the jet. Make sure there is no crud under the needle valve stopping the fuel prematurely and starving that carb. That cylinder is obviously leaner than the others at idle and leaner than the rest. You can hear it slightly at idle and the other cylinders which are perfect can't totally mask the lazy cylinder. Also when you rev it and it hits that cylinder you can hear that it kind of skip a bit then accelerates. The other cylinders sound awsome. If you recheck the mixture screws on that cylinder I'm sure it will clear it up. Make %100 sure that it's set to what the other cylinders are. If you are %100 sure, turn the mixture screws a 1/4 turn at a time out until the cylinder has enough juice to be in line with the others. That cylinder is also causing the idle to hang up a bit when lightly revved.


Here's what to test before taking the carbs off:

(Can skip this step if you're sure of the float height)
If you want to see if that number 3's float height is jiving with the others you can do it without taking the carbs off. Get some clear plastic hose and attach it to the drain nipples on number 3 and number 4 on the right hand side of the bike. Curve the hoses to be above the float bowl and temporarily tape it to the right side of the carb bank. Open up the drain screws and the fuel should fill up the hose dictated by the float height. Take a look. Sometimes even when the float height is set to say 14.7mm or whatever for the gen1 there will be minute differences. If there are air bubbles just start the bike and they'll go away. Are the levels within a mm or so of each other?

Here a video where he loved it so much he made it permanant which I think is overkill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG1Qiki7hH8

Another test you can try is turn the mixture screw on that cylinder a full or half turn out temporarily then measure the temp of the pipe in case you miscounted the turns out or turned it the wrong way. I've done that before, So for example, you have it at 2 1/4 turns and not 3 1/4 turns so the cylinder is dragging and getting even leaner. Is it now falling in line with the other cylinders? You can compensate for a gummy pilot a bit by opening the screws on that specific cylinder. It's also not unheard of to have a cylinder needing an extra 1/4 turn or so more or less then the other cylinders. Since every carb has microscopic machining differences, amounts of wear on needle valves, etc some may need more or less.  What does the plug look like? Try riding around in the "dead zone" and pull that plug with some gloves or wait until the bike is cool. If the base ring doesn't have at least one full turn of colour you're running lean on the pilot on that cylinder. Recount the turns on that mixture screw to be sure it's in line. Maybe you leaned it instead of riched it up when adjusting to 3 1/4 turns by accident? I've done that before too having a brain fart and turned it the wrong way. If you turned it the wrong way by accident that cylinder may be 3/4 of a turn IN from 2.5 which would make it 1 3/4! Instead of 3 1/4. Reset that mixture screw!


Here's a tip which helps so you don't have to pull the carbs to reset the inner carb mixture screws. Get a flathead bit that is a few inches long such as one for a multibit  screwdriver. Turn the mixture screws in which if your on the right hand side of the bike for number 3 carb to the right or towards the engine block until it's LIGHTLY seated then take a cheap dollar store dental mirror or ransack your wife's purse for a hand mirror and with a magic marker mark where the mixture screw has stopped on the underside stalk ring. Use the hand mirror to make sure your marking it correctly. If you're off just wipe it off with your finger and try again.

Once it's pretty good insert the screwdriver bit like your going to unscrew the mixture screws and make a mark on the outside of the stalk and continue down onto the driver bit. Now when you turn the turns out as long as that line comes around and you can see it from the outside it will be one turn so you don't have to micromanage with a mirror to count. So now just unscrew and when the two lines on the outside of the mixture screw stalk and the driver bit line up it's one turn. So count out 3 turns, then get the mirror out and turn another 1/4 turn to be in line with the others. Retest the bike. Once it's pretty well spot on you can use the tiny 3/4 inch flathead bits instead of the big momma to fine tune.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 08:03:28 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2012, 10:04:58 AM »
hmmm I see the picture. Well anyway heres the link.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wnsddbVgGt8/Tz0KvGdAAsI/AAAAAAAABLQ/fmm1idLiJac/s640/IMG_0108%2520%2528Small%2529.jpg

I'm gonna try your suggestions tonight more than likely and then report back.

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2012, 12:30:20 PM »
Are you saying the super rich plug is the plug thats missing? If the number 3 is the sooty/rich one see reset the mixture screws to make sure you haven't gone OVERBOARD with the mixture screws and it's fouling the plug. Also make sure the lead is seated nicely. In fact if all the cylinders look like the rich plug I would turn the mixture screws in at least a 1/4 turn or more that sooty ring and sooty electrode tip are a sign of richness down low. If the all look like the lean one, it's ok, a little rich down low but good and lean at mid/cruise which is common for this bike. I think you may just have missed a turn or too on that cylinder, reset the mixture screws on that puppy and see what happens. It's super duper rich if we're talking about the same plug.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 12:38:21 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2012, 12:38:02 PM »
Yup #3 is the rich one. But what doesn't make sense is when I give it choke it starts to fire, aren't you adding more fuel when the choke is on?

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2012, 12:51:43 PM »
Well if all the cylinders look like the leaner one then your fine overall, maybe a 1/4 turn too rich, but don't touch the other cylinders for now. Hows the spark on number 3 compared to the other cylinders? Weak? Take the plug out and attach it to the lead then make sure it's touching the engine block and have a look. Then try number 4 as a comparison. Maybe the spark is weak. You're sure that number 3 has the same amount of turns as the other cylinders correct?

Maybe for fun turn the mixture screws in a half turn on that cylinder to see if the plug cleans up. It might be fouling and producing lower power, hence lower temps. That plug is super rich so it may be killing the combustion. Try a mixture screw experimentation. You can always set it out to where the other ones are. See what happens after experimenting with the mixture screw as thats the easiest fix then we'll go from there.

Other causes for later if it can't be fixed by mixture screws:
Worn emulsion tube,
Needle not seating.
Needle holder has popped out and needle just floating around loose in there causing crazy richness(happened to me once).
Pilot or mainjet worked itself loose, emulsion tube loose or bad o-ring.
Crazy float height, etc, etc.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 01:32:07 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2012, 12:58:35 PM »
I've triple checked the pilot screws, they should be all the same. I tried the  spark thing last night, but i didn't do a comparison so I'll try that. It's got to be simple so I'm probably overthinking it, or I've just got terrible luck.