2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.

[mpatrick]

First post here and of course its because I'm having problems.
I just got a 2000 1200s with about 17k on the clock, it had been sitting for about a year or so. I did all the usual stuff before riding it such as change the oil (valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil) and filter, flush the brakes and clutch fluid.
Getting it to run was a bit harder, I took the carbs off and cleaned all the passageways, jets etc, it runs but just not very well from 1000k-4000k, I assume this is a carb issue.
My real problem is that the clutch is slipping pretty bad. When I first start the bike and ride everything is fine, by the time I get out of my neighborhood the lever gets tighter and you can disengage the clutch with very, very little pull of the lever. Bleeding the clutch seems to help for a few pulls, then its back to being tight. I have cleaned the pushrod which was very dirty, that didn't seem to help. I'm just not sure how to clutch could being going out with so little miles. My uncles lasted 80k, and he rides hard. Any help would be great.

Thanks, Mike

[txbanditrydr]

First off...   to the site.

I don't have anything specific to offer - sounds like somethings not retracting properly.  Either that or you need to install a stronger clutch spring (Barnett).

17K is a young clutch unless it was abused by a previous owner somehow.  Hopefully someone will be along shortly with better suggestions.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[rider123]

Stronger springs would definitely help. Is the bike stock? 1000-4000 is mainly pilots, maybe try turning out the screws a 1/4 turn and seeing if that helps a bit you could also shim the needles a .5 mm shim that might get the mains on faster. You're at the end of the GEN1 before they beefed up the clutch. Installing stronger springs is recommended by most of the guys here but 17000 is pretty low maybe take a quick look at the clutch plates while you have the cover off.

However the clutch lever getting "hard" I'm not understanding do you mean that the clutch is hard to pull in? Maybe the clutch master cylinder is gummed up or rusty and the piston is not returning completely, that would cause the clutch to slip as it's already half disengaged. It would also make it easier to disengage from your symptoms that your discribing. I would start there. I'm assuming you flushed it when you bleed the brakes? Things get a little gummed up when they've been sitting for a year. You could also try a little seafoam in the fuel tank and a good high speed highway run might just clear out all the little passages in the carbs.

What I would do is totally flush out the master cylinder and clutch lines again and make sure the tiny hole which allows the piston to return to the open condition is not gummed up with dirt or rust flecks. If that hole is gummed it causes the piston to not return properly to the full open position and will basically be the same as if you pulled the clutch in slightly which would cause the clutch to slip. I saw this once on another bike. THe owner swore up and down that the clutch was phucked but what it was, was the clutch master cylinder was gummed and not returning properly. Yo could give it a shot. Letting a bike sit for long periods of time is the worse thing you can do to a bike. It could be rusted inside, return valve gummed or plugged up with rust flecks, etc. Take a piece of wire and clean out the return hole. That may fix your problem entirely as I doubt at 17000 miles the clutch is dead. However if it was semi-phucked and the previous owner was slipping the clutch all over the place he may have pre-maturely wore it down.

Since you said that after bleeding it works for a few pulls I would say that the piston is not returning properly and after pumping it a few times the pressure builds up enough it actually half dis-engages the clutch. Take a look at that master cylinder again.

[mpatrick]

The lever does get harder to pull in, not by much but it is noticeable. The lever goes from having to pull in about halfway to shift to being able to shift by pulling almost nothing in, the longer I ride the worse it gets. Almost like the slave is not returning when letting go of the lever.

[rider123]

This is probably from pressure building up and not being released. It's the same when you pump your brakes the pressure builds and builds and it gets harder and harder to put on the brakes. I would take a look or even take entirely apart and clean the master cylinder assembly and the piston. I bet you a dollar it's gummed up or full of rust flecks or dirt which is not allowing the pressure to be released entirely when the lever is released.
 
I would try this solution as it's the easiest and the consistent with your symptoms. Always try the simple/cheap fixes first. If you want to be lazy, you'll see the return valve at the bottom of the master cylinder just get a piece of wire and work it in and out of the hole(no pun intended) and clear the crap out of there.

The symptoms of your problems are common with a bike thats been left to rot. Don't sweat it. As for the carbs I would use some fresh gas with a little sea foam and do the "Italian tune up" a few times which should help clear the shit out of there. What you do is make sure the bike is warmed up. When stopped have access to the intake snorkle, rev the bike up to 5 or 6 thousand then let off the throttle and cover up the snorkle at the same time back down to idle. What this does is create a shitload of vacuum in the carbs sucking up any crud or clearing gummed up passageways in the carbs. Do it a few times with a bit of sea foam in the tank and I'll bet your pilots will clean themselves up in no time. Take it for a long highway jaunt will sure help it as well.

If the clutch plates are slightly warped or the clutch is engaging/disengaging weirdly it may drive wonky with the carbs totally fine as the bike would put power to the wheel unevenly. Fixing the clutch may make all the other symptoms be reduced or go away completely.

[mpatrick]

That's what I was thinking my next step would be, I'll try it tonight and let y'all know how it goes. 

[rider123]

Ooops I forgot to say if your taking the master cylinder off make sure you cover your paint brake fluid will pit the paint very very easily. Maybe tape up some newspapers over all the painted surfaces when you take the master cylinder off.

[mpatrick]

Maybe a dumb question when I look into the bottom of the master I see 2 holes, one i can see the plunger clearly the other is tiny and I cant see anything, I assume the tiny one is the return. Am I right?

[rider123]

I'm not sure on your master cylinder as I have the next Generation of bike. However if you want drain a little of the brake fluid with a paper towel so that there is a thin layer maybe of a few millimeter of fluid and pump the clutch you see either a jet shoot up where the return hole is, or just a little fountain. It should be the tiny of the two holes,it may be too small to clean out without taking the cylinder off but you can give it a shot. Sometimes if you take some picture hanging wire and unwind a few of the windings it should be small enough to get in there. I know its tough it's a little tiny hole so it gets gummed up easily unfortunately.

Just remember cover that paint!

[mpatrick]

Well Last night I cleaned the master and the slave, both of which were pretty filthy with the slave being the worse. There were chunks of dirt and grime in the slave. The lever does feel different, but I haven't had a chance to ride it yet (started raining). Cross your fingers that it worked. Do y'all think that changing brands of oil would make the clutch slip? Previous owner only ever used yamalube, I put in valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil.

Also I tried the Italian tune up but I cant seem to get my hand close enough the cover the hole completely, any tricks.   

[LowRyter]

I own a Gen 1 bike.  I have 75k miles on it.

Regarding the carbs.  My bike was never very smooth at low rpms until it was rejetted.  You didn't say if your carbs were stock but many bikes were rejetted.  Bigger pilots helped helped smooth it out, but the Stage 1 with larger mains and 2nd airbox hole makes it run much better.  Just don't expect to get good gas mileage, stock or modified.

Regarding the clutch.  These bikes have weak clutches, mine started slipping (hi gear, hiway speeds) at about 24k miles.  The real fix is adding one Barnett spring.  This makes the clutch pull pretty robust.  I tried a Barnett clutch pack that lasted for fewer miles than the stock one.  I went back to a stock clutch & added one stiff springs & it's lasted for about 40k miles or more with no problems.  I recently cleaned out the fluid, I think the rubber line is getting a little spongy and contaminated the fluid.  I might go to stainless line soon- I've already done it to the brakes- makes a big difference.

[mpatrick]

The carbs are stock as far as I know. They have been serviced before at a shop before I got the bike if that makes a difference.  I can tell you that the previous owner rode the thing like a grandma, so I don't think that the bike was abused to make the clutch go out so soon.

[txbanditrydr]

Doesn't really sound like the oil is causing the clutch to slip - seems more brake system related.  I personally stay away from synthetic oils (not sure if either two you mentioned are synth or not) due to the high cost and Shell Rotella's 15w-40 performance over the last 100,000+ miles.

Hope the rain moves out soon and you report back that everything's stellar.   

[rider123]

It may be fine once you the clutch starts to function ok. Like I said if it's been slipping and putting power to the rear wheel all wonky like who knows what it's like once everything is A ok. If you drill out the mixture screw plugs and turn them out a 1/4 turn that might cure some of the cold bloodedness and smooth things out a little. Also a carb sync will help you out as well. Here is a thread I started with a carb syncer I built for $5. It works great!!!

http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13207.msg104034;topicseen#new

I know the 1st gen Bandit's clutch springs were a bit weak and I know the clutch spring trick is a good idea for that Gen of bike and cheap and easy mod. The only way that the oil would cause the clutch to slip is maybe if it was full synthetic which for wet clutches can cause them to slip. I only use semi-synthetic but haven't had a problem yet and I'm at 40000km. However I'm not doing drag race trap shoots, but I'm not exactly putting around either. As far as the "Italian tune up" goes as long as you cover most of it it will increase the vacuum alot, but the best way is a long highway run or running around with lots of throttle racing around a bit. I guess the owner before you was putting around too much and the pipes weren't getting cleaned out. Since the bike has low milage I'll bet you the clutch springs are probably fine for now but take LowRyder's advice and maybe pop in a stronger clutch spring later on in the year or next winter or something. If the clutch never engages completely because of a sticky clutch system then they may be tired from being slightly more compressed than normal.

If you have to take the carbs apart to clean them out you might as well do a stage 1 jetting and get an extra 10-15 horsepower out of the deal, you won't regret it. There are alot of guys here that can help you with your generation of bike in regards to jet selection. That $10 you spend on jets will be the best $10 you've ever spent.

It basically involves making a 2" hole in the airbox lid and upping the Mainjets and shimming the needles and adjusting the mixture screws. If you can take apart the brake assembly you can do a jet kit as it's actually EASIER than what you've already accomplished.


Here is a good site to give you more info:

http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/banditfaq.htm

Most of the stuff there is for your Gen of Bandit.

[mpatrick]

I was gonna do a carb sync tonight. I borrowed one of those high dollar sync tools from a guy at work. The mixtures screw caps have already been drilled, would you suggest I re-seat the screws and start from scratch?