Author Topic: Being air/oil cooled and stuck in traffic (Read 8555 times)

Banditmax · « **Reply #15 on:** June 04, 2007, 01:28:07 PM »

As oil gets hotter it becomes thinner therefore making it easier for the parts to slide around.

Vlad · « **Reply #16 on:** June 04, 2007, 02:50:53 PM »

Quote from: "Banditmax"

As oil gets hotter it becomes thinner therefore making it easier for the parts to slide around.

Interesting logic. I always thought that thicker oil makes shifting smoother and my experience confirms it 100%. Bandit shifted the smoothest with Mobil1 15W50 and was also very good with Rotella 15W40. It was always a bit hard with any 10W40 oil and that's why I'll be switching to Amsoil 20W50 at the next change.

I would have stayed with Mobil1, but cannot find it anywhere here lately :(.

drewpy_dawg · « **Reply #17 on:** June 04, 2007, 02:51:35 PM »

Isn't the Rotella a diesel oil though?

Banditmax · « **Reply #18 on:** June 04, 2007, 02:55:25 PM »

Quote from: "vlad"

Quote from: "Banditmax"
As oil gets hotter it becomes thinner therefore making it easier for the parts to slide around.

Interesting logic. I always thought that thicker oil makes shifting smoother and my experience confirms it 100%. Bandit shifted the smoothest with Mobil1 15W50 and was also very good with Rotella 15W40. It was always a bit hard with any 10W40 oil and that's why I'll be switching to Amsoil 20W50 at the next change.

I would have stayed with Mobil1, but cannot find it anywhere here lately :(.

Surely 10w50 is thinner than 10w40 at high temperatures? I always thought the number after the w was the vicosity when heated up.

Vlad · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2007, 03:23:43 PM »

Quote from: "Banditmax"

Surely 10w50 is thinner than 10w40 at high temperatures?

Now we got it all confused :). 50 is THICKER than 40, right?

Quote from: "Banditmax"

I always thought the number after the w was the vicosity when heated up.

That sounds about right, AFAIK. The first number before the "W" refers to the oil's cold temperature viscosity, while the second number refers to its high temperature viscosity.

In other words, 10W40 behaves like 10 grade oil at zero Fahrenheit and like 40 grade oil at high temperature (water boiling temperature if I'm not mistaken).

That's science. My left foot tells me that Mobil1 15W50 "red cap" shifts better than any 10W40 at any temperature, and it's most probably because it's thicker than 10W40 at any temperature. So far the logic fits, but Amsoil 10W40 threw me off when it started shifting considerably smoother at 140+C (285+F).[/b]

Banditmax · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2007, 03:38:20 PM »

You'll most probably find after 140 celcius the amsoil is becoming thicker again then.

drewpy_dawg · « **Reply #21 on:** June 11, 2007, 08:30:01 PM »

Back on topic...
I'm working with a electronics whiz and someone with access to a waterjet to get something cheap going. My plan at this point, based on some observations and measurements, is to try a 120mm computer fan. I'm going to see if it has enough cfm's and is robust enough to handle the heat where it is located. For less than 10 bucks for the fan, its a good first attempt and about the only thing I have found slim enough to fit behind the cooler and not touch anything. Mounting is a big concern, hence the mechanical engineer and a waterjet and I'm also concerned about over revving the fan at speed. That, again, is why I'm going for cheap first. I've got someone working on wiring just in case the fan will be generating electricity when it is not running. I don't want power running into my switch or the neg. terminal of the battery.
Will post when its done...

Vlad · « **Reply #22 on:** June 11, 2007, 09:49:07 PM »

With a computer fan I would be concerned with water and dust getting into it and the heat that can melt the fan case. Everything else you mentioned is secondary, if at all relevant for the setup. Keep us posted.

pmackie · « **Reply #23 on:** June 12, 2007, 12:49:03 PM »

Sorry to put this back OFF topic, but I want to correct a couple of points: Lubrication Basics 102

The SAE J300 viscosity classification system defines 2 series:

Those containing a "W" are winter grades (the SAE made it pretty simple in the old days), defined by cold cranking viscosity(ASTM D5293) and low temp pumpability (ASTM D4684) tests. In effect, they relate to the ability to start and supply oil in a cold engine. Depending on the test and the oil viscosity, tests are done from -5 to -40 deg C.

Those without the "W" are summer grades, defined by kinematic viscosity(ASTM D445) at 100 deg C and High Temp/high shear viscosity or HTHS (ASTM D4683 & D4741) @ 150 deg C. In effect, this simulates the actual oil viscosity under operating conditions in the engine.

A multigrade oil (like 10W-40) means it has been tested at both ends of the system. Which is why you can buy 20W-20, and oil that is a 20 grade at both low and high temp.

One other comment, all oils (and basically all fluids, including air) get thinner (lower viscosity) at higher temperatures, and get thicker (higher viscosity) at lower temperatures. As almost all North American mineral (dino) olis are based on Parafinic crudes, they also contain Parafin wax, which can really cause them to thicken up as the temperature drops.

As for what we "feel" as we shift the transmission, this is much more subjective. Thicker oils (higher viscosity) will provide more "cushion" between the gear teeth, usually making things quieter. BUT, higher vis oils tend to run hotter, due to the increased friction.

SAE 40 oils (0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40, 15W40) tend to be the right comprimise in our engines. But let's finish with a general statment. Using a quality engine oil (API SH or highter), of the correct viscosity (SAE 30, 40 or 50 are all OK) changed regularly, will have everyone at 90% or better. We are only niggling over the last little tweaks that are largely subjective.

Sorry for the thread hijack. Unless you spend a LOT of time under ilde conditions, I wouldn't be overly concerned about the rise in temperature (but I don't have any data on what is actually happening to oil temperatures). The higher temps WILL decrease oil viscosity, but it starts out higher than the ENGINE section needs. Lower oil vis could cause the clutch to get "grabby" and the transmission to become noisier, but should not result in any significant increase in wear. Just avoid low revs/high loads until the engine cools a bit.

okbandit · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2007, 05:32:32 PM »

Your fan could trigger, if you idle in nuetral, the nuetral light. Then it would be off anywhere other than that position, and with a relay, electrically isolated at high speed so no feedback. If you get really into it you could disable it with high beam on so when you are warming it up and want the fan off, turn on the high beam.

B6mick · « **Reply #25 on:** June 15, 2007, 06:42:35 AM »

Never ever had a problem with the B6 as a courier bike stuck in the CBD, in the middle of summer. Yes it sure was hot, but have still to find any ill affect, she's still running strong with over 130,000 k's on the clock near half of that was courier k's. Had way more problems with water cooled bikes when couriering,

drewpy_dawg · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2007, 11:10:17 PM »

What ambient temps are you dealing with typically? I'm worried about the upper 90's F (35+ C). I got stuck in traffic and literally crept at less than 5mph for 45 minutes. It was still cold (relatively) in the 40's F so I wasn't worried but even then the bike seemed to get awfully warm. Granted, that was before all the carb work so maybe its running happier now and not as hot. (Running lean adds heat from what I understand...). I'm still debating building it. I've got voltage regulators on the way to make sure 12volts is all thats going through the system (same for my LED's I'm about to install). I found an aluminum framed computer fan to help a bit with heat. If the fan can deal with the heat, I am not worried about dirt and water due to its location and the protection that the oil cooler will provide.
I guess a good question is did the GSXR's with their full fairings have a solution for this?

B6mick · « **Reply #27 on:** June 22, 2007, 03:21:37 AM »

Quote from: "drewpy_dawg"

What ambient temps are you dealing with typically? I'm worried about the upper 90's F (35+ C). I got stuck in traffic and literally crept at less than 5mph for 45 minutes. It was still cold (relatively) in the 40's F so I wasn't worried but even then the bike seemed to get awfully warm. Granted, that was before all the carb work so maybe its running happier now and not as hot. (Running lean adds heat from what I understand...). I'm still debating building it. I've got voltage regulators on the way to make sure 12volts is all thats going through the system (same for my LED's I'm about to install). I found an aluminum framed computer fan to help a bit with heat. If the fan can deal with the heat, I am not worried about dirt and water due to its location and the protection that the oil cooler will provide.
I guess a good question is did the GSXR's with their full fairings have a solution for this?

High 30's to mid 40's c. To answer your last question, a larger concaved radiator.

Buzter · « **Reply #28 on:** June 26, 2007, 12:47:28 AM »

I just turn the bike off and wait.

PaulVS · « **Reply #29 on:** June 30, 2007, 01:16:41 AM »

Call me Mr. Redundant....

It seems to me that a motorcycle that is designed from its inception to be air/oil cooled...

Ala 1996-2006 Suzuki B12/B6...

The only 'difference maker' in operating temperature is going to be oil, or changing the ability to cool the oil.