Ethanol

[tannerismyhero]

Not trying to open another can of worms here, but hero, have you followed any of the octane threads?

nope....what are you getting at? The combustion of the higher octane?

[B6mick]

Methonol is the good stuff, but its kind of expensive, racing fuel.
Ya need to rejet for it to. like the jets need to be so big ya could drop ya fist through them. No not quite, but lots lots bigger.
The big shyte fight not that long ago, that our federal government even got imvolved with was the use of ethonol, and selling it blended greater than 10% and not telling the comsumer that iin fact it was blended.

I thought methanol was wood alcohol and was a no no in all but highly modified race engines. I see the zuk manual said not to be used, where ethanol is ok and suggested up to 15%! This could become a bigger can of worms than the oil. Or the requirement of the stealer doing the services! That costly 600 mile one they say is needed. "BAHUMBUG"  

Thats right mate, as I said, Quote " Methonol is the good stuff, but its kind of expensive, racing fuel." Drag racers use it, but not your street type racer. I think you can still use it in some forms of classic racing too. Needs huge amount of work on the motors, cams and carby work, hence the statement about " jets need to be so big ya could drop ya fist through them. No not quite, but lots lots bigger." And of course with jets so much bigger ya use shyte loads more. To my knowledge not likely to replace ULP or PULP fuels. Ethonal however is used in some South Americian countries, with a lot of success. Mind you car manufactures have been forced to make changes to fuel systems, ignition timing and some materials used. Just a pity these manufactures carnt do the same here, oooophs that would be a political lame duck statement wouldn't it.

[Red01]

Not trying to open another can of worms here, but hero, have you followed any of the octane threads?

nope....what are you getting at? The combustion of the higher octane?

The lower combusibility of higher octane fuel, yes.

You aren't doing an engine designed to run on regular any favors by burning premium in it. The best thing to do is to run the lowest octane you can get away with that won't cause knocking. The higher the octane, the harder a fuel is to burn.

[scooter trash]

Thanks everyone especially ray nielsen for the info. Virginia is doing away with all fuel with MTBE or Methyl-Tertiary-Butyl-Ether so we are stuck with the Ethanol.

 

[pmackie]

Fuel blended with Ethanol can bring up some other problems...

The fuel blend can be very sensitive to small amounts of water and high frequency vibrations...the water can cause the ethanol to separate.

I had this very problem on a nice road trip home from Vancouver to Cranbrook, about 900 kms one day. Filled in Vancouver at a site that uses Ethanol blended fuels, on a wet, light rain morning. Once I switched to reserve about 300km later, that was it, lights out.

I had discussions with the station and oil company reps who swore up and down that I had to have had "significant" water in my fuel tank, and that the water and vibration together contributed to the fuel separation.

I have also seen the same problem frequently in Marine applications. In premixed marine service, the water, alcohol and OIL will all separate from the gasoline and drop to the bottom of the fuel tank, leaving your engine to run on insufficient oil.

So...I avoid Ethanol blends in my bikes and boat. It doesn't seem to cause the same level of problems in cars, likely due to the type of vibration.

[marcostn]

In Brazil we have, believe me or not, 25% of ethanol from since I can remember. The lower mpg does not bother me, but all our imported vehicles have some engine parts changed to avoid corrosion from the water generated after the combustion and from the ethanol itself. The exhaust system suffers a lot also. After 20.000km, I had to change the needles, but as my Suzi dealer would have to order them from Japan, and I would have this same problem later, I went to V-Max ethanol-proof needles that Yamaha-Brazil produces.

[longislandbandit99]

New  York started using the 10% ethanol blended gas and it has been reeking havoc in the marine industry.  I'm also hearing that a lot of motorcycles, snow mobiles and jet skis are having issues too.  Small carburetors and small passages clog easily.  The problem is the ethanol absorbs water and then you get these water slugs at the bottom of the tank where the pickups are.  Those slugs try to pass through the carb and just clog up everything small with the gunk they carry.  The ethanol eats away at rubber gaskets and o-rings too causing them to swell.

[Rocketboy]

i'm from Minnesota and the one thing i do know about ethanol fuel is that the dairy and beef cattle farmers can barely afford corn for their critters anymore.

Sooo......, what we have is a fuel that is marginally more friendly to the environment, except for the fact that it more than makes up for that in the oil used in production, the worse gas mileage, and the pollution from the factories creating more parts to replace early wearing ones.  Then on top of that, i have to pay more for a hamburger and an ice cream cone?

Who's winning here?

[06 Greyhound]

i'm from Minnesota and the one thing i do know about ethanol fuel is that the dairy and beef cattle farmers can barely afford corn for their critters anymore.

Sooo......, what we have is a fuel that is marginally more friendly to the environment, except for the fact that it more than makes up for that in the oil used in production, the worse gas mileage, and the pollution from the factories creating more parts to replace early wearing ones.  Then on top of that, i have to pay more for a hamburger and an ice cream cone?

Who's winning here?

From all of the literature out there on Ethanol it has never been the answer that the oil companies and politicians say it is.  It actually requires more oil in the form of fuel for the farm equipment and fertilizer that it saves as a fuel additive.
 
I would also add that the manual notes the maximum for ethanol additives would mean that regular and midrange fuel are ok but not premium, at least the way fuel is blended here in Alberta.

[CWO4GUNNER]

All I know is what I have experienced with my personal use of ethanol. It was prevalent up until the late 60 when the oil companies got congress to stop the use of grain based alcohol (ethanol) in gasoline then returning again in the 90's. 10% ethanol helps even low grade gasoline burn much cleaner and more completely, you can feel it when you drive and see it in your clean fuel system. So for me its an unequivocal fact that the fuel once known as Ethol is and was an excellent blend that fare exceeds gasoline only blends. For those of you that differ, speak to the gas cap cause the fuel system is not listening.

[Red01]

The fuel once known as Ethyl got it's name from Tetra-Ethyl Lead (TEL), not Ethyl Alcohol (ethanol). In the early 1920's GM wanted to run it's engines on pure ethanol, but oil companies were unwilling to sell it, so GM came up with the solution to add TEL to gasoline to prevent knock and allow the development of higher performing engines.

[CWO4GUNNER]

Hmmmm? Perhaps I got the wrong play on words, I meant ethanol gasoline (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline). Hay! Your supposed to be the site Conciliary, not the accuser.

[Red01]

Gasoline blended in a 90/10 mix with ethanol is known as gasohol or more recently, E10. The gas in the late 60's (even into the late 70's in some areas) known as Ethyl was simply hi-test gasolene laced with more TEL than regular (leaded) gasoline. It got the name from the "E" in TEL.

[longislandbandit99]

I attended a meeting on Tuesday of the New York Marine Trades Association.  They had two guest speakers, one of whom was a regional dude from Yamaha.  I'm currently in training to become a certified marine mechanic so these types of discussions are important.  Here's what I learned.

Ethanol loves to attract water.  As a matter of fact, ethanol is 200% more likely to bond with water over gasoline mixtures (octane, heptane, etc.)  The problem is small amounts of ethanol need even smaller amounts of water to phase separate from the gas.  The Yami dude said something like 0.1 of 1% or whatever.  Basically in a small bike gas tank that holds about five gallons of fuel, you have half a gallon of ethanol.  So you'd only need to absorb roughly however many pints of water to cause the ethanol and water to sink to the bottom of the tank.  In boats you're talking 50-100 gallon tanks so it takes more water to phase separate the ethanol.  However marine applications have to vent to the outside atmosphere.  Not a good thing when you're on the sea in July and its humid and 90° out.  So if bike tanks vent to the outside air, that can be a problem.

E-10 gas is also a very mild electrolyte as well as a very strong solvent.  Put E-10 in an old gas tank and whatever corrosion/grit/stuff etc on the tank will be stripped off and suspended into the fuel tank.  Being an electrolyte it can actually oxidize aluminum tanks, albeit very slowly and over a long period of time.  Still this can cause a small brownish silty residue to form on the bottom of the tank.  This is more likely in marine applications as well.  However add a noble metal such as copper strands from wire you happen to be stripping over an open tank and the electrolytic effect magnifies.

E-10 causes gasoline to go stale quicker too, typically up to 8 weeks before its going to start to phase separate and decrease in octane.  It is recommended that stabilizers are used to reduce this all year long.  Not just for long periods of storage.  The best thing you can do with E-10 is use it up quickly or drain the tank completely.  You need to run the engine dry too.

Ethanol is the EPA's answer to environmental clean up and reduced greenhouse emmissons.  They wanted biorenewable fuel additives and MTBE was poisioning the water tables.  If your state doesn't use it, it probably will very soon.  Ethanol also decreases your fuel economy.  So you will in the long run be buying more gasoline.  It will burn cleaner and faster, thus pocketing more money in the oil companies' pockets.

[Rocketboy]

It just drives me nuts that gvmt. agencies would look at tailpipe emissions and say "yup, we'll do this to cut down on greenhouse gases" and not pay attention to the emissions caused by making the stuff, and that more gas is being burned.  i guess it's too much to ask from people whose only real job requirement is being popular.  For some reason these people can only handle science in the absolutely most diluted and easily digestable form.

Hmmm, worked a 19 hour shift today and it's starting to look like i'm a little crabby.  Time to stop posting and go to bed.