suzuki oil alternative?

[JReviere]

Oh great celestial hunter accompanied by a faithful canine marching across the night sky...  welcome to the discussion.

I too have read the comments about the Wally World house brand filters and oil. I use them (SuperTech) both in my old work truck.  They seem to be just fine.  

Your question of brand switching (you called it "testing.") is a valid one. What will it hurt?  The answer is IT WILL HURT NOTHING but perhaps your wallet.

Manufactures are in the business of SELLING so they will do what they can to close your mind to all brands but what they sell. The reality is, if you drain the old and install fresh, nothing bad is going to happen even if you put in fresh stuff you wouldn't use in a 50 year old klunker...  

Most of what you read about various oils, especially those formulated especially for motorcycles is PURE HYPE. Most all of the "test results" etc. are focused on OVERKILL.  Overkill happens when you go beyond the point of diminishing returns in terms of value received for your hard earned money.

Yes, running engine oil in the transmission gears does subject the oil to greater shear and impact stresses. Yes, it might break down (lose viscosity) more quickly and so it might benefit from a minute addition of anti-wear, anti-shearing, and anti-impact additives, but your proposed short time testing shouldn't in any way cause a dent in anything but your wallet.

If the oil meets or exceeds the bike manufacturer's specs as listed in your owner's manual, chances are you won't be able to tell the difference after a change of brands... the engine won't either.  Now, the time it takes for the oil to begin to break down (lose viscosity) in the gears resulting in stiffer or "clunky" shifting may vary, but as soon is you notice stiff or "clunky" shifting, you change the oil... you are going to be just fine.  

Notice too, NONE OF THE MAJOR MANUFACTURERS recommend any additional additives. I've tested all those too... TFE (Trifloroethelene or teflon)... no positive effect...  STP goo... no positive effect... several other supposedly viscosity improvers, friction reducers, and such... those all in general have a very positive effect on the SELLER's bottom line, but do your engine NO GOOD... most are harmless too.  

The best thing you can do is pick your juice and change it frequently with a fresh filter each oil change.  

JR
01B12S "Le Rouge Rogue"
Lake Livingston, TX

[JReviere]

Vlad... you said:

"All those stories about how it's not good to mix different types/grades of oil are pure BS, IMO."

I say:   RIGHT ON!    If I could agree more, I would.  

JR

[orionburn]

Nice post, JR  

I can't believe tv has been lying to me all these years....  

I've always felt that changing the oil/filter on a regular basis was more important than the type or brand of oil itself. I've only been riding for a few years now and am still learning a lot about the internals to these engines...and of course that process is never ending  

[drewpy_dawg]

I too am glad to see a Civil oil post.  My previous cage's cult-like following (VW TDI's) had a cult-like oil war and about half the yahoo group's members left due to it.  
My concerns and reason to post:
1. Synthetic vs. Non-synthetic?  I'm running "semi synthetic" motul right now...its fine.  I was told it would make my shifts feel better but it didn't really affect it one way or another.  It had v-twin specific castrol 20-50 before..Then we get into the Type III vs. Type IV synthetic argument  
2. Recommended rating?  Book says 10w40.  Does going to 50 and to a synthetic really help?
3. Heat-related breakdown.  Houston weather and potential for VERY high engine temps.  

I worry about Rotella because it is a diesel oil.  It has additives specific to handling a large soot-load from the diesel engine.  (Try to get used oil from a diesel engine off concrete...or your skin for that matter...).  Isn't Rotella an "energy conserving" oil as well?  My v-max got 500 miles on Mobil 1 for cars...guy changed it back to motorcycle oil but the damage was done.  Miles later, with a new owner (me) and new driving style the clutch started slipping pretty quick.  
I, like many of you, have a 20-25% off coupon at cycle gear valid later this month...was going to stock up on 4 oil changes worth of oil if I get insight on what to purchase.  

Only thing I would add to the "peace of mind" argument...a couple of the small-guy synthetic oil makers and maybe Mobil 1 (for cars at least) offer warranty's above and beyond the manufacturer's warranty.  Never heard of any experiences trying to claim on them.  (I switched to royal purple chain lube on my previous bike for this reason...I figured if my chain failed early, I could at least try to get them to pay to replace it...).  

My 3.1415 cents,
Andrew

[JReviere]

Andrew.  I know Houston heat well. I live on Lake Livingston north of you.  
I don't claim to be an authority on POL (Petroleum/Oils/Lubricants).  
Here's a very good article on oil.
Each should form their own opinion, I think.
Yes, Rotella is formulated for Diesel use. The soot load is I think. looking the wrong direction.
The concern in formulating oil for diesel use, I think, is HIGH IMPACT loading due to the extreme compression present in diesel engines. Oil formulated to hold up under that kind of pounding would find the crank bearing and rod bearing loads in a bike engine very gentle by comparison.  
I'm more concerned with molecular shearing (piston ring slipping and bearing slipping) and impact resistances than about soot.
I'd then consider the soot quesiton to be a "red herring" detracting attention from really vital factors involving shear and impact resistance. But then that's just the way my mind works... weighing the various factors all en masse and deciding on the basis of what's best for how I use my engines.  

JR

[orionburn]

My v-max got 500 miles on Mobil 1 for cars...guy changed it back to motorcycle oil but the damage was done.  Miles later, with a new owner (me) and new driving style the clutch started slipping pretty quick.

Ok, so let me ask this. What's the difference then between oils "specially formulated for motorcycles" from Brand X as opposed to, say, Pennzoil marketed for cars (assuming both are the same weight, i.e. 10w40)? Is there truly a difference on the molecular level, or is it another marketing thing?

[drewpy_dawg]

I'd then consider the soot quesiton to be a "red herring" detracting attention from really vital factors involving shear and impact resistance. But then that's just the way my mind works... weighing the various factors all en masse and deciding on the basis of what's best for how I use my engines.  

JR

My reason for concern I guess has to do with the additives package that makes the oil ok with all the soot.  I'd like to see an article similar to the one posted earlier about that.  The diesel oils they tested are not considered to be good oils that you can safely run 10k in a TDI.  (based on oil analysis at 5k).  I think, from reading the article, it has to do with what, and how much, anti acid chemicals are in the oil.  

There IS a difference between most regular car oils available today and motorcycle oil and that is the "energy conservation".  That is where motorcycle clutches get grumpy is with that package of addititives.  Also, I've been doing some reading on the new oil's LACK of additives causing older cars to die quickly.  I can't find the link right now...

[Vlad]

Ok, so let me ask this. What's the difference then between oils "specially formulated for motorcycles" from Brand X as opposed to, say, Pennzoil marketed for cars (assuming both are the same weight, i.e. 10w40)? Is there truly a difference on the molecular level, or is it another marketing thing?

It's pretty much a consensus that there is no difference. The only thing to avoid are the oils with "energy conserving" mark, but those are not produced in grades most motorcycles use (10W40, 20W50...) anyway.

[drewpy_dawg]

Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...

[Vlad]

Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...

I have never seen an energy conserving 10W40. Maybe they have changed the formulation recently or i wasn't looking well enough...

[orionburn]

Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...

I have never seen an energy conserving 10W40. Maybe they have changed the formulation recently or i wasn't looking well enough...

Same here. I've always used Pennzoil for my cars, but have never noticed anything that said "energy conserving" on the label. Unless it's in lawyer sized print on the back. I know I have a quart in the trunk of my car, but rode the bike today so will have to look when I get home. Unless the "energy conserving" is a norm now in the industry and they don't list it on the package.

Edit: Went to Pennzoil's website and looked at some data sheets on the 10w40. Doesn't say anywhere on it that it's EC. They do have a specific brand for motorcycles. The biggest difference is that the API classes regular (for cars) oil as a SL rated oil, and the motorcycle blend is SG rated.

The specific gravity and density ratings are virtually the same between the two, but the viscosity ratings are higher for the bike blend compared to the car.

[orionburn]

Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...

I have never seen an energy conserving 10W40. Maybe they have changed the formulation recently or i wasn't looking well enough...

Stopped by the local auto parts store to see if they carried bike oil and didn't have much. I did however finally figure where the hell the "energy saving" label is at. If you look on the back of the bottles (virtually all brands) there is a small circle that indicates the API rating (SG, SM, etc). In the lower half of the circle it will state "energy saving" if it is, and much to my surprise a lot of them are labeled that way.

[pmackie]

I'm not near any of my tech books right now, but generally, Energy Conserving (EC) and Energy Conserving II (ECII) oils need to be SAE 30 or less (the number following the W in the SAE rating) such as 5W-20, 5W-30. Our bikes should be using a SAE 40 viscosity, eg 0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40 or 15W40.

The SAE viscosity rating is based on an actual viscosity range, so it is possible that a SAE 40 that barely makes the grade could get an EC rating...Most oils that pass EC or ECII do so with the use of friction modifiers, which you want to avoid in our wet clutches, but synthetics based on PAO or synthetic hydrocarbons should not cause any issues, and usually need a lower treat rate of VII additives to maintain viscosity in service.

Without dredging up a lot more debate, for most of the questions, read some of the other threads on oil here. The important thing is to find something you trust, and change it on a regular cycle.

Diesel engine oils DO have a detergent/dispersent package that has to contend with higher soot loading. Not necessarily a bad thing for our bikes with wet clutches. They also have VII additives that tend to be more shear resistant. Also a good thing with wet clutches and tranmissions.

[Red01]

I'm not near any of my tech books right now, but generally,
<snippage>
_________________
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
27 years in the Fuel/lubes industry

I was wondering how long it would take before the POL pro stepped in the clear things up.  

[orionburn]

Got my oil changed last night. Only store nearby that had bike oil was a PepBoys. Didn't have 10w40 in stock, but had a gallon jug of Castrol 20w50 so figured I'd give that a go. Seems to shift a lot smoother, but that could simply be due to puting new oil in. $15 for it so wasn't too bad. Anything beats the Yamalube 20w40 I have to run in the FZR. They're about the only ones that make that weight and the damned local stealer charges $5/quart.