Author Topic: Bel-Ray chain lube - and lots of others  (Read 4815 times)

Offline mike

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Bel-Ray chain lube - and lots of others
« on: March 12, 2005, 08:01:21 PM »
Bel-Ray chain lube - and lots of others
(from the old board)
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Quote
FreediverGA
(5/17/04 1:23 am)
Bel-Ray chain lube

 Has anyone used this stuff. what do you think about it if you have. I used this past weekend and not really sure about it! I sprayed on really thick and looked like white waxy coating left behind. I'm going to scrub down my chain this week and spray it down again and see how it works. I would really like to find something that doesn't sling off too easy. It's really pain in the A$$ to clean that stuff off your bike

Manny what was that stuff your group was using in a gold can during BOSS? I heard you say it was pretty good stuff but didn't get the name !

Also if the chain is out of adjustment will this cause extra chain noise around the front sprocket. I road about 250miles Saturday and started to notice the extra noise. I thought it might be the new chain lube not doing it's job. After getting home I checked the chain adjustment found way off. I've corrected the problem but haven't had a chance to ride after the adjustment! Manual said 25-35mm and I have it adjusted to 30mm

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Treehuggr
(5/17/04 9:51 pm)
Re: Bel-Ray chain lube

 I had grabbed a can of Bel Ray last fall before I toured Stateside. Everything I had read about it seemed to indicate it was great stuff. It does make your chain "look white" but I had very little problem with flingy residue crap everywhere like I had expereinced with some other chain lubes. I would lube the heck outta the hot chain with Bel Ray every nite before I put the B12 to bed. The chain was in great shape when I got home and still is. ('bout 3000 miles) I cleaned the chain again today and decided I liked Chain Wax better esthetically.

Bernie
 
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Red01SuziB12S
(5/17/04 10:46 pm)
Re: Bel-Ray chain lube

 I'd ather have a chain last longer and not be as pretty as have a pretty one with a short life. In the chain lube shootouts I've seen, chain waxes rank low.

Paul W

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Kevinb600
(5/18/04 9:21 am)
Re: Bel-Ray chain lube

 Paul
What do you use for chain lube, and how often do you apply it?

Kevin R
 
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Treehuggr
(5/18/04 11:02 am)
Re: Bel-Ray chain lube

 OUCH!...Paul, that was about as cold as an Alberta Spring morning. I use Chain Wax by Maxima. It has a good rep. A former racing buddy of mine uses it on his street bike too and has had no problems with his chain. I lube the chain after the return home trip of every ride, even from work. BUT, If I was goin' on a long trip, like to see you guys,  I would probably switch to Bel Ray just for added insurance.

Bernie
 
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Red01SuziB12S
(5/18/04 3:58 pm)
Re: Bel-Ray chain lube

 I use the Honda stuff in the red can. About a year or so ago, MCN did a shoot-out of the top 30 some most popular chain lubes (including WD-40 - which came in last). The stuff I use was in the top 4 (#3, IIRC), which all got their "recommended" label. The Honda stuff had the lowest fling-off of the top 4 and is probably the easiest to find. Again, IIRC, PJ-1 took top and #4 honors with their black and blue labels, but I don't remember which one was which. The highest rating a chain wax got didn't even make the top 10. I'll see if I can dig up the article, it's one I did save... somewhere.

Paul W

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Treehuggr
(5/18/04 4:25 pm)
Bel ray chain lube

 PJ-1 was the stuff I was tryin' to think of. I thought it flung off much more than anything I had used in the past. I switched from it to Bel Ray. I had used Maximum's Chain Wax prior to PJ-1. Don't get me wrong. I am sure it is a great product and the survey you speak of has merit. My experience was that it "flung" itself everywhere.

Bernie
 
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Red01SuziB12S
(5/18/04 6:35 pm)
Honda's red can chain lube

 They reported the PJ-1 stuff was pretty flingy, too. I had already been using the Honda red can stuff when I read the report, so I just stuck with that. I like how clean it keeps the rear wheel - and the chain. It dries to a protective film in a few seconds and doesn't attact dirt like a wet chain will.

And to repond to how often I apply it, I spay the chain down every other tank of gas, ~300 miles, and clean the chain ~3000 miles. The POS original chain lasted >15K and the DID on there now has almost that many miles on it now and still looks like it's in great shape. I've only adjusted it once so far.

Paul W

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malonef
(5/19/04 12:59 pm)
Re: Honda's red can chain lube

 I used Yamaha Chain Lube until I was not able to find it at any local dealer. They all seem to sell out quickly and cannot seem to understand that happens because it sells so well. Anyway when I could not find the Yamaha I tried PJ Blue label which also rated high. What a mess it made of my bike. What was flung(is that correct) off was like tar and took a kerosene bath to get it off the chain guard and the front sprocket cover.
I am due to buy more lube and if I cannot find the Yamaha I guess I will try the Honda.
Maybe I will just buy a ScottOiler this Winter and be done with it.

 
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Quote from: "Red01SuziB12S"

(5/19/04 8:19 pm)
MCN Chain Lube Shootout - Part 1 (test overview)

OK, found the article. It's in the September 2001 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News if anyone wants a reprint. There's about four pages of text and phots about chain lubes and how they run the test, but here in Part 1, I've paraphrased the parts I figured most would care about. Subsequent parts are copied directly from the article, only difference is I converted their "black dots" (or portions thereof) to a numeric system for convenience. They tested 22 different popular lubes at the time of the writing. I was wrong, WD-40 didn't come in last, they came in 19th. Popular chain waxes ranked mid-pack. All lubes were tested in the following areas, with street performance more in mind than off-road:

Visual Observation - Product was sprayed into a container to evaluate delivery method with the nozzle and tip extention (if equipped). Properties noted along with a follow-up observation after solvents evaporated. Also observed tackiness between thumb and forefinger and dabbed them together several times. Author assumed a tacky lube would stay longer, but real tests would prove or disprove later. Since this was a subjective test, this postion did not count in scoring, but comments are made in the Observation section for each lube.

Corrosion Resistance - 7"x2" pieces of mild steel, thoroughly sanded w/150 grit sandpaper two times and solvent cleaned three times to remove any possible contaminants were used as the test article. Each lube was applied to it's own test strip held at 45* for 10 minutes to allow for runoff (as a chain would have runoff, too), allowed to dry for 2 hours, then exposed to a salt water bath for 12 hours, then air dry for 12 hours. Cycle repeated twice.

Grit Resistance - New test strips, prepped as above, sprayed with lube and allowed to dry had dried sand applied 1/4" deep. Pieces then turned upside down and allowed any loose sand to fall off. This was the end of the grit test. Pieces then cleanedwith high pressure water. Some lubes released sand and easily washed away, some would not wash away without solvent cleaning, these lubes were noted in the final comments as these would probably be good lubes for severe wet weather use.

Sling Off Test - A 16/43 sprocket set with a Tsubaki chain (size not stated, and neither was ring status, but based on the way the article was written, I'm guessing it was a ringed chain - and probably 530) turned at 1750 RPM by an electric motor with white paper at both sprocket pivot points was used to check sling. Lube was applied to upper and lower sides of chain and allowed an hour to dry. Chain was cleaned in kerosene and dried with compressed air between each run.

Initial Rolling Resistance - Using the sling off test setup, (cleaning and lube methods, too), the motor was started and allowed to reach it's full 1750 rpm, then the motor stopped and a stopwatch used to note the time to coast to a complete stop.

Post-Use Rolling Resistance - Same as Initial above, except chain was run for one hour, simulating 46 miles of no-load use, before timing coast down

Scoring performace was graded all relative to one another, ie; no absolute scale for any of the categories, just whatever performed best, got a rating of 5 and worst got a 1.

They said if you have personal preferences in a certain area over another, use the scoring to pick the one that excells in your preferred field(s).

Paul W


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Quote from: "Red01SuziB12S"

(5/19/04 8:48 pm)
Re: MCN Chain Lube Shootout - Part 2 (the recommended ones)

Please note that some brands have more than one representative here, and in those cases, there are differences in results (in the Yamaha brand, drastic), so be sure you look at the label carefully. Honda's blue label can was not tested... I don't think it was out at the time of the test.

Anyway, here's the scores of the top six:

1. PJ1 Chain Lube (black) (MCN Best Buy)
Total Score 25.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 4.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 5.0
Sling Off = 3.0
Corrosion Resistance = 5.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 5.0
Cost per ounce = $0.42
Observations: Dark blackish/purple slightly foamy spray. Dries to thick black liquid that feels very tacky. Best in group in corrosion reisitance and in reducing rolling resistance. A long-time leader in chain lube technology.

2. Kawasaki K-Kare Foaming (MCN Recommended)
Total Score 23.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 5.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 5.0
Sling Off = 1.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.5
Grit Resistance = 4.0
Value = 5.0
Cost per ounce = $0.36
Observations: A slightly foamy, amber medium thin liquid that dissapates moderately fast. When dry it remains a med. thin liquid with a slight tackiness to the touch. Least expensive of all bike-specific products. Excellent initial and post rolling resistance, but poor sling off characterisitcs.

3. Yamaha Performance (MCN Recommended)
Total Score 23.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 4.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 3.0
Sling Off = 4.0
Corrosion Resistance = 5.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 4.5
Cost per ounce = $0.53
Observations: Sprays a fine mist of yellowish-white slightly foamy liquid. Quickly dissapates into a med. thin, light viscosity liquid. Dries into a light amber solid gel with no tackiness to the touch but did produce a slippery feel. Excellent corrosion resistance and good sling off resistance.

4. Pro Honda HP Lube (red can) (MCN Recommended)
Total Score 22.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 3.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 2.5
Sling Off = 4.0
Corrosion Resistance = 5.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 4.0
Cost per ounce = $0.53
Observations: A fine mist spray that was dark gray and was very thin in viscosity. The product dried to a soft blackish non-pourable grease with little to no tackiness. Superb rust protection, average or better in other respects.

5. PJ1 Chain Lube (blue) (MCN Recommended)
Total Score 22.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 5.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 4.5
Sling Off = 2.0
Corrosion Resistance = 4.0
Grit Resistance = 2.0
Value = 4.5
Cost per ounce = $0.44
Observations: Fine pinpoint spray that is very thin in viscosity and blue in color. Dries to a tacky, thin gel. Very water resistant. Despite mfr claims, sling off is below average. Initial rolling resistance is excellent and maintains well during use, but the tacky gel also attracts and holds grit.

6. Torco Power Slide Titanium (MCN Recommended)
Total Score 21.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 4.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 3.5
Sling Off = 4.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.5
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 3.5
Cost per ounce = $0.54
Observations: High preessure med spray of a white liquid. Dries into a soft, foam-like cream. Very light and slippery, yet little tackiness to the touch. Very water resistant. This is Torco's new (back in 2001 when this was written) product that replaces the Power Slide lube.


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Quote from: "Red01SuziB12S"

(5/19/04 9:15 pm)
Re: MCN Chain Lube Shootout - Part 3 (the runners up)

 OK, I was wrong... a chain wax did make it into the top 10, but none made it to the "Recommended" level.

7. Bardahl Chain Wax
Total Score 20.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 3.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 2.0
Sling Off = 4.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.5
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 4.0
Cost per ounce = $0.47
Observations: Medium brown high-pressure mist when using the extended tip or the built-in nozzle. Eventually dries to a hard, waxy solid. No tackiness was detected due to the paraffin base. Good resistance to sling off, butabout average in all other respects.

8. Maxima Synthetic Chain Guard
Total Score 19.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 5.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 5.0
Sling Off = 2.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.5
Grit Resistance = 1.0
Value = 3.0
Cost per ounce = $0.54
Observations: Slightly foamy spray dissapated moderately slowly. Dries to a light amber color, pourable oil similar in viscosity to thin motor oil. Some tackiness was noted. Tied for first place with Kawasaki for best rolling resistance.

9. Silkolene ProChain
Total Score 18.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 3.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 4.0
Sling Off = 4.0
Corrosion Resistance = 1.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 3.5
Cost per ounce = $0.48
Observations: Very thin jet like spray with a trace of green color in a basically clear liquid. Dries to a clear, unpourable gel with high tackiness. Maintains good rolling resistance and sling characteristics, but scores poorly in corrosion resistance despite mfr's claims.

10. Bel-Ray Chain Lube
Total Score 18.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 2.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 4.0
Sling Off = 1.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.5
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 4.0
Cost per ounce = $0.43
Observations: Strong pinpoint light tan spray from the nozzle that instantly foams into a thick shaving cream like foam. Dries to a very thick and very tacky amber liquid similar in viscosity to honey. Also has the tip holder built into the can top. Good rolling resistance, but poor sling off characterisitcs.

11. Maxima Chain Wax
Total Score 17.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 4.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 1.5
Sling Off = 3.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.5
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 2.0
Cost per ounce = $0.59
Observations: Slightly misty spray was delivered with the nozzle and with the extended nozzle of the coffee colored liquid. Eventually dries to a hard waxy solid. No tackiness was detected due to the paraffin base. Good initial rolling resistance, but effects seem to degrade quickly in use.

12. VP Chain Glide
Total Score 17.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 4.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 1.0
Sling Off = 3.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.5
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 2.5
Cost per ounce = $0.54
Observations: The entire wording on the label is identical to Maxima Chain Wax except for the brand name... hmmm? Not suprisingly, all test results and observations were also nearly identical. However, the VP is slightly less expensive.


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Quote from: "Red01SuziB12S"

(5/19/04 10:29 pm)
Re: MCN Chain Lube Shootout - Part 4 (bottom of the list)

13. Bel-Ray Super Clean

Total Score 17.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 1.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 2.5
Sling Off = 5.0
Corrosion Resistance = 4.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 2.0
Cost per ounce = $0.59
Observations: Milky colored fine mist spray. Dries to a soft yet thick non-pourable cake icing-like film that feels quite slippery to the touch with some tackiness. Very water-resistant. Product cap has a very handy tip holder built into it. A top scorer in sling off, but poor rolling resistance.

14. Castrol Chain Wax
Total Score 17.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 3.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 1.0
Sling Off = 5.0
Corrosion Resistance = 4.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 1.0
Cost per ounce = $1.84
Observations: Delivers a very fine, milky colored mist, no extended nozzle was included. Dries to a soft, thick, non-pourable cake icing like film. Very slippery to the touch with some tackiness. Excellent sling off rating, but poor rolling resistance. Very expensive.

15. Lubrimatic EP Gear Lube
Total Score 16.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 2.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 4.0
Sling Off = 1.0
Corrosion Resistance = 2.0
Grit Resistance = 2.0
Value = 5.0
Cost per ounce = $0.059
Observations: No claims specific to motorcycle chains. However, several manufacturers suggest the use of gear lube. Medium thick dark amber liquid. Since it contains no solvents its appearance does not change as time passes. Good rolling resistance but poor sling off characteristics. Least expensive by far of all products.

16. Motul Chain Lube
Total Score 16.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 3.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 1.0
Sling Off = 5.0
Corrosion Resistance = 4.0
Grit Resistance = 2.0
Value = 1.5
Cost per ounce = $0.59
Observations: Lid contains a convenient holder for the extra tip and extended nozzle. Product is delivered as a fine mist of very clear, light viscosity spray. Very water resistant. Excellent sling off and good corrosion resistance.

17. Motul Chain Lube Plus
Total Score 16.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 1.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 2.0
Sling Off = 5.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 1.5
Cost per ounce = $0.59
Observations: High pressure mist-like spray. Dries to a white cake icing-like feel. Has good tackiness to touch. Very water-resistant. Excellent sling-off characteristics. The large can refills Motul's small-sized can, saving you expense.

18. Suzuki Chain Lube
Total Score 16.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 1.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 3.5
Sling Off = 1.0
Corrosion Resistance = 4.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 3.0
Cost per ounce = $0.42
Observations: Thick dark purplish foamy spray, quickly dissipates leaving a medium thin liquid. Dries to a clear liquid on top with a darker black layer on bottom. Moderate tackiness. Very water resistant. Slings off easily.

19. WD-40
Total Score 14.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 2.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 1.0
Sling Off = 1.0
Corrosion Resistance = 3.0
Grit Resistance = 5.0
Value = 2.5
Cost per ounce = $0.40
Observations: Thin amber liquid in a fine spray that did not dry or cure. An old standby of cyclists everywhere. WD-40 showed excellent grit resistance and good corrosion and water protection, but slings off easily and comes up short on rolling resistance. Most moto-specific lubes are better.

20. Spectro Synthetic total tac
Total Score 14.5
Initial Rolling Resistance = 1.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 1.5
Sling Off = 3.0
Corrosion Resistance = 4.0
Grit Resistance = 2.0
Value = 2.5
Cost per ounce = $0.46
Observations: White thick foamy spray, slow to dissapate. Large diameter nozzle sprays a slow, easy to control pattern while extended nozzle delivers a fine spray. Dried to a cloudy light honey-like pourable liquid with some tackiness. Good corrosion resistance, but not much else.

21. Silkolene Chain Lube
Total Score 11.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 2.5
Post Rolling Resistance = 4.5
Sling Off = 1.0
Corrosion Resistance = 1.0
Grit Resistance = 1.0
Value = 1.0
Cost per ounce = $0.41
Observations: Dark brown, medium-thick spray that was slightly foamy as dispensed. Dries to a dark brownish-black, pourable oil with good tackiness. Excellent extended rolling resistance, but corrosion, grit reisitance and sling off all the worst of the group. Silkolene's ProChain scores better.

22. Yamaha Chain Lube
Total Score 9.0
Initial Rolling Resistance = 1.0
Post Rolling Resistance = 1.0
Sling Off = 1.0
Corrosion Resistance = 2.0
Grit Resistance = 3.0
Value = 1.0
Cost per ounce = $0.43
Observations: Thick purplish foamy spray quickly dissapates leaving medium-thin liquid. Dries to a clear liquid on top with a darker layer on bottom. Moderate tackiness. Very water resistant. Poor resistance and sling off. Odd, as Yamaha's Performance brand scored a "Recommended."


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Quote
Prairie Bandit
(5/19/04 10:37 pm)
chain lube comparison

 Good info there Paul! I agree with your comments on the chains. It seemed like I was always adjusting the stock chain(RK, I think). I have about 8K on the DID ZVM and have only adjusted it once. Just clean, lube and go.
 
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lwaynemorris
(5/19/04 11:30 pm)
Re: chain lube comparison

 Paul,
Thanks for taking the time to pull all the data together for us.
Looks like it is time for me to switch lubricants. I have been using Maxima Chain Wax because that's what the owners of my local shop use on their own bikes. They also only sell Fram oil filters and that is what I used on the Bandit until about a year ago when I read all the threads and links re il filters. I put alot of trust in "MCN", and almost no trust in the other motorcycle rags who exist only because of their ad revenue.

Thanks again,
El Wayne

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Red01SuziB12S
(5/19/04 11:34 pm)
Re: chain lube comparison

 Glad to help out. It might be worth my mentioning, I was reading a thread on chain lubes over at ST.N the other day and there was mention the Honda red can lube has been discontinued... so when my current can runs dry, I may be looking for a new chain lube, too.

Paul W

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lwaynemorris
(5/20/04 7:23 pm)
Re: chain lube comparison

 I decided that I would go for a ride today in search of a chain lube rated in the top 5. I live in a very rural area of Ky. and the nearest Stealership is 40 miles away, then 40 miles to the next, etc. Decided just for the heck of it to stop by the local NAPA. Can't believe they had the PJ1(Black) in stock. Tomorrow I'll degrundge the chain and try out the PJ1.
 
El Wayne

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FreediverGA
(5/21/04 2:36 am)
I'm searching too

 I'm going to start searching this weekend to! sounds like some good stuff!!! After that Ijust need to bolt on all this @#%$ I ordered and have piled in my garage. Then find someone to ride with and I'll be set! I'm planning on riding most of western NC Memorial weekend so I'm getting excited for some time off !
 
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Treehuggr
(5/21/04 10:53 am)
Bell ray chain lube

 Paul. thanks for all that info. Unless you are a whiz on the keyboard, it musta taken you a while to enter all that data here. If I typed that much, I think my throttle hand would be in limbo all summer. I am digesting it and I will take a trip to a NAPA store and my local "stealership" to look for a new chain lube selection. I like that word..."stealership". Thanks again for the effort and the info, eh?

Bernie
 
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Red01SuziB12S
(5/21/04 3:02 pm)
Re: Bell ray chain lube

 I'm no whiz, but I'm not too bad for a four fingered typist. It did take a while for me to type it all in... and then go back and fix my mistakes and make it look a little better. Took dinner break in there, too. Good thing that night we had two inspectors on the plane and the other one was up doing an engine run, so I had a couple hours to waste on the computer.  

Paul W

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ksbbbandit
(5/27/04 8:33 am)
Re: Bell ray chain lube

 I have tried the waxes and some other brands of lube. I like the PJ1 blue the best.It doesn't fling off as bad as the PJ1 black. The only down side to the blue is it is hard to clean off. The PJ1 black seems to make a big mess of the back of the bike. Worse than anything else I've tried. Just my 2 cents. Kent


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Quote

lwaynemorris  
(6/30/04 4:17 pm)
Re: Bell ray chain lube

 I've been using the PJ1 Black for about six weeks and 3500 miles now. Love everything about it except, as Kent said,

Quote
The PJ1 black seems to make a big mess of the back of the bike. Worse than anything else I've tried. Just my 2 cents.


It is easy to degrundge the chain with kerosene, seems to hold much less road grime than other products I have used. Rolling resistance is lower.

I have polished rims and the sling is just too much to bear. I have been very careful to remove all excess oil with a rag after application, but it still slings oil like crazy.

Guess I'll try the PJ1 Blue when I empty the current can of Black. The Honda Red is no longer available.
 
El Wayne

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Red01SuziB12S
(6/30/04 7:01 pm)
Re: Bell ray chain lube

 I don't think you'll be any happier with the PJ1 Blue as far as sling-off goes.

I was just in the local Honda store last week and they still had several cans on the shelf - as much as any other chain lube or other products on the racks. I asked the guy if he had heard anything about it being discontinued and he said he hadn't... but I've been hearing it can't be found in some places, like CA.

The Yamaha Performance stuff is supposed to have about the same qualities as the Honda red can - and was rated slightly better by MCN, but my local Yamaha (and Suzuki/Kawasaki/Ducati/Guzzi/KTM & Gas-Gas) dealer doesn't carry either of the Yamaha chain lubes.

Paul W

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lwaynemorris  
(6/30/04 7:24 pm)
Re: Bell ray chain lube

 Paul,
Is this the same lube you have been using?
The Honda site still shows the part number for the following:

powersports.honda.pro chain lube
 
El Wayne

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Red01SuziB12S
(7/1/04 12:18 am)
Re: Bell ray chain lube

 Yup, that's the stuff!

Paul W

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GaryB12VA
(7/2/04 12:26 pm)
Re: Bell ray chain lube

 I've been using the PJ1 Blue and like it. Like Wayne said, the Black flung like crazy all over the rear of my bike. I used to use Silkolene in a red and black can, but couldn't find it anymore. That was the best stuff I had used. The Motorex stuff that Dale Walker sells is supposed to be pretty good, too.
Gary