Author Topic: Target Fixation (Read 7738 times)

CWO4GUNNER · « **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2007, 02:54:57 PM »

Which proves my point that dirt riding demands a much higher level difficulty. When not abandoned builds superior equilibrium in the nuances of balance, agility, equipoise and reaction, albiet not usually with repeated falls at every turn before learning something. Duelporters may not hang off in traffic with the proverbial hand waive but when it come to reacting quickly to a bad situation, we are in the know.

Have Blue · « **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2007, 09:39:44 PM »

Quote from: "stormi"

I'm not sure that it works for me either, but I haven't exactly been trained to do it,... I just experiment a little when I ride. We're thinking of sending me to the track this year though, and maybe I'll find that it works for me after that.

The secret to fast is smoothness and consistancy. Some riders hang off, some hardly at all. Use what is comfortable for you.

Blue

Have Blue · « **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2007, 09:42:53 PM »

Quote from: "CWO4GUNNER"

Which proves my point that dirt riding demands a much higher level difficulty. When not abandoned builds superior equilibrium in the nuances of balance, agility, equipoise and reaction, albiet not usually with repeated falls at every turn before learning something. Duelporters may not hang off in traffic with the proverbial hand waive but when it come to reacting quickly to a bad situation, we are in the know.

I'm not too sure about that. There are so many things between them that are different, its like comparing apples and oranges. They're both round and have seeds, but.............. :-)

Blue

CWO4GUNNER · « **Reply #18 on:** February 05, 2007, 10:00:03 PM »

Well in all fairness I will say that both dirt and track time experience goes a super long way in supplementing the deceptively easy world of licensed on road motorcycling, which in reality is a dangerous and unforgiving environment for which too many who are ill prepared by their local "Motorcycle Safety Foundation" and/or DMV course which is not enough for the first time unexperienced rider (like a one way mission). Oh and target fixation as well...

stormi · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05, 2007, 10:53:46 PM »

Quote from: "CWO4GUNNER"

Which proves my point that dirt riding demands a much higher level difficulty. When not abandoned builds superior equilibrium in the nuances of balance, agility, equipoise and reaction, albiet not usually with repeated falls at every turn before learning something. Duelporters may not hang off in traffic with the proverbial hand waive but when it come to reacting quickly to a bad situation, we are in the know.

Absolutely! Dirt requires much more skill, it's also nice to take your lumps there when learning. Dirt is SO much softer than asphalt!

In my defence, thanks to our riding season, or lack there of, I would have remembered not to hang off on dirt, if I'd been on a dirt bike more recently than 8 -9 months before.

Good thing you can either hang off, or push the bike in ( a la dirt biking) on the street. Traction is a beautiful thing.

stormi · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2007, 10:59:30 PM »

Quote from: "Have Blue"

The secret to fast is smoothness and consistancy. Some riders hang off, some hardly at all. Use what is comfortable for you.

Blue

Ahhh!! Good advice.

Sometimes I envy the guys with the guts to get right down and drag a knee,... but I don't think I have the guts to do it. I still can't figure out how some of them do it on our streets, with barely a curve. One of the guys in St Albert does it, and it's a thing to behold.

I'll stick with my barely past perpendicular to the road for now.

Have Blue · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2007, 11:56:37 PM »

Quote from: "CWO4GUNNER"

Well in all fairness I will say that both dirt and track time experience goes a super long way in supplementing the deceptively easy world of licensed on road motorcycling, which in reality is a dangerous and unforgiving environment for which too many who are ill prepared by their local "Motorcycle Safety Foundation" and/or DMV course which is not enough for the first time unexperienced rider (like a one way mission). Oh and target fixation as well...

I certainly agree with you that dirt and track experience is advantageous. I think MSF courses are a good thing but my opinion (whatever thats worth :-) ), is they offer slight to no usefulness to saving your butt in a street confrontation. Then too, my feeling is few if any novice riders are prepared to act constructively when faced with a crash situation. Maybe none of us truly are. ???

Practice and becoming a skilled rider improves ones chances, but that is only part of the equation. I've asked myself what
is the difference between between those that crash and those that dont. I've come to the conclusion it isnt due to lack of riding skill. I know some riders that can handle a bike better than I, but they have crashed many more times than I have. Dirt riding will develop the reflex half of the problem, but in the dirt, that rock will still be in the same place 5 seconds later. On the road, everything is constantly changing position, speed and vector. The quality lacking in dirt riding is prediction. The difference (I believe) between those that crash on the street and those that dont is their ability to read and predict traffic so as not to be where they have predicted a high probability of a conflict. In a word, awareness. I probably devote 1% of my attention to operating the bike, 25% to scanning the road relative to surface conditions and debris and the rest of my time is spent on tracking traffic, combining trajectories and changing my position relative to what is going to happen.
There is a point where no amount of riding skill will save you, but if you can avoid being at that point of convergence, then
skill does not become a factor. If you dont want to get run over, dont cross in front of where you know a car will be 5 seconds from now. :-)

The key to longevity is.................awareness.

Blue

H2RICK · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2007, 01:08:04 AM »

Quote

The key to longevity is.................awareness.

Yep, Have Blue, truer words were never spoken.....and the lower your skill quotient is the higher your awareness MUST be.
That way, you can then decide not[/b] to be where the potential accident will occur. Simple stuff really....and it is taught in all the rider courses I'm aware of. Maybe it's just not used as consistently as it should be.
R (recognize the hazard...oh, oh, wanker in cage on cell phone at 3 o'clock)
I (identify how the hazard will affect you...he's pulling out in front of me)
D (decide how to deal with the hazard...I'll swerve around him, go behind him, whatever)
E (execute your decision...start countersteering, etc.)
R (recover from your manoeuvre....steer back into your lane)

Having said all that, I'm in complete agreement with the dirtbike types here. I rode cross-country bikes for 20 years and I definitely learned a lot of skills I would not have learned on the street....or may have learned on the street but at great pain (pun intended) and expense. Dirt biking speeds up the skill acquisition process exponentially, IMO.
Just leave the extreme stunt crap to the experts on teevee.

Have Blue · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2007, 03:00:19 AM »

Quote from: H2RICK

..and the lower your skill quotient is the higher your awareness MUST be.

There may be a problem with that. New riders spend more of their time operating the bike since understandably, their skill level is lower. There is only so much time available, so they have less to spend observing their surroundings. It isnt a simple task no matter how its divided.

Blue

Have Blue · « **Reply #24 on:** February 06, 2007, 03:08:10 AM »

Quote from: "stormi"

Sometimes I envy the guys with the guts to get right down and drag a knee,... but I don't think I have the guts to do it. I still can't figure out how some of them do it on our streets, with barely a curve. One of the guys in St Albert does it, and it's a thing to behold.

I'll stick with my barely past perpendicular to the road for now.

Why not find a straight, infrequently travelled road and while going in a straight line, practice moving around on the bike.
There isnt any law that says you can only hang off the bike if you're in a turn. It'll go straight quite happily with you hanging off either side. Sometimes, I cant resist playing with the minds of the Ricky Racer types and pass them on a straighaway hanging off just for grins. Once in a while I pass them on a curve hanging off the wrong side for an even bigger grin. :-)

Blue

aussiebandit · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2007, 06:34:01 AM »

By chance, you're not a ride day instructor......

A couple of mates of mine did a ride day/training day this time last year and were saying that at the end of their time they thought they we doing so well, that was until one of the instructors passed them on the out side of a (what they thought was tight) left and corner corner, looked at them, smiled, took his left hand of and gave them the thumbs up....

Have Blue · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2007, 01:06:20 PM »

Quote from: "aussiebandit"

By chance, you're not a ride day instructor......

A couple of mates of mine did a ride day/training day this time last year and were saying that at the end of their time they thought they we doing so well, that was until one of the instructors passed them on the out side of a (what they thought was tight) left and corner corner, looked at them, smiled, took his left hand of and gave them the thumbs up....

No, I'm not a ride instructor. I've just been at it for a while and when the situation has permitted, have probably clowned around with a bike more than I should have. :-)
Still do, it keeps the old reflexes up.

What you said is so true. When you're smooth and comfortable in a turn and the lines are correct, no further input is needed. The bike goes around all by itself. You ever wave at oncoming riders while leaned over in a turn? Notice that some wave back and others stare straight ahead, tightly gripping both grips, not daring to take a hand off. On any turn at any speed, if you cant take a hand off the grips, you need to work on setup and being smooth. Ever watch Rossi
drifting through a tight turn, knee dragging at 120 mph, wave at someone on the sidelines and complete the turn one handed. He can do that because his setup is right, he is smooth, comfortable, no further input is needed and he has free time.

Blue

stormi · « **Reply #27 on:** February 06, 2007, 03:58:10 PM »

Quote from: "Have Blue"

Why not find a straight, infrequently travelled road and while going in a straight line, practice moving around on the bike.
There isnt any law that says you can only hang off the bike if you're in a turn. It'll go straight quite happily with you hanging off either side. Sometimes, I cant resist playing with the minds of the Ricky Racer types and pass them on a straighaway hanging off just for grins. Once in a while I pass them on a curve hanging off the wrong side for an even bigger grin. :-)

Blue

You know, I was playing that way a little when we were in the mountains. I discovered it when I started to get a little stiff, and started to fidget. I realised that I could move around a ton on the bike and still have it go straight. Some came from "counter balancing" the way I do it on the dirtbike (i.e stomping on the outside peg while cornering hard) some of it came from being aware of where I was in relation to the bike. Of course, I didn't go very far over in any of the circumstances.

I also touched my foot down on the ground at about 60mph (misjudged the distance to the ground at night), while stretching, and the bike barely even noticed. That was a surprise. There was serious pucker factor going on at that point.

I've got a good 2 months before I can try any of this though.

LOL! That would be hilarious to see! I would love to see the looks on their faces when you go by them on the totally "wrong" side of the bike.

Have Blue · « **Reply #28 on:** February 06, 2007, 09:55:08 PM »

Quote from: stormi

You know, I was playing that way a little when we were in the mountains. I discovered it when I started to get a little stiff, and started to fidget. I realised that I could move around a ton on the bike and still have it go straight. Some came from "counter balancing" the way I do it on the dirtbike (i.e stomping on the outside peg while cornering hard) some of it came from being aware of where I was in relation to the bike. Of course, I didn't go very far over in any of the circumstances.

I also touched my foot down on the ground at about 60mph (misjudged the distance to the ground at night), while stretching, and the bike barely even noticed. That was a surprise. There was serious pucker factor going on at that point.

I've got a good 2 months before I can try any of this though.

Find some clear highway and go play. :-) :-) Its good for you. eh eh Just do things in small steps so you stay comfortable. Its supposed to be fun.

One of my games for open road is to weave the dotted centerline at about 60 mph. Start out slower than that though. :-) If will speed up your steering reflexes. When you can do it in a straight line, practice it while negotiating a curve. (keep in mind, it must be a curve you can see from beginning to end in its entirety) Being able to swerve back and forth in a curve will come in handy the next time something on four feet jumps in your way while the bike is leaned over. Whatever you can do to increase your skill is a good thing. :-) Enjoy.

Blue

H2RICK · « **Reply #29 on:** February 06, 2007, 11:17:27 PM »

Quote

New riders spend more of their time operating the bike since understandably, their skill level is lower.

The object of a PROPER novice riding course of about 20-25 hours total duration is to get the rider competent enough in his/her basic operation of the bike so that he/she CAN think about other things i.e. the traffic around him/her.
I taught the Canada Safety Council Novice Rider Course for 19,
count 'em...19, seasons and that's the object of their course.
Sure they teach other skills....but basic bike operation as a subconcious action is foremost. Everything else is built on that particular skill. That's why EVERY new rider
(and a lot of experienced ones too) should take a proper formal riding course.
Now, of course all the old sweats on here will say "I don't need no steeenking novice rider course!!" but you'd be surprised at what you can learn. When I took the Instructors' Course I was 28 years old and full of P & V.....
lotsa 1/4 mile time....lotsa high speed street racing time, etc etc.
Boy....did I get my eyes opened in a hurry....and since I can take a hint, I figured that maybe I HAD been doing a bunch of things wrong, after all.
All that stuff has stayed with me for all those years and (knock wood) I haven't thrown any of my street bikes down the road yet.....and I haven't let the cagers whack me yet, either.
To paraphrase a famous guy: The price of safe riding is eternal vigilance.
End of rant.....for now.