Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?

[stormi]

Hey All,

On Monday I have to go fight a $287 red light ticket.  Here's the neat part, I remember the situation clearly.

The technical:  The ticket was postmarked on Oct 18, and arrived to me on the 22nd. The pic is so light, it's nearly impossible to see which light is lit on the tree.

Oct 3rd, it was 4:16pm (this I know from the ticket), the temp was about 10C (50F), the threshold where I stop riding because the tires start to have crappy traction because they and the roads are getting too cold.

The ticket says I was going 35Kph (That's 21.74mph for you non-metric folk) It's downright embarrassing to get a pic of your bike at that speed!  I crossed the stop line at 0.5sec after the light turned red.  Yes, a ½ second.

I was in rush hour traffic, and there was a car behind me trying to make progress.  He'd been moving lane to lane, and doing erratic manueveurs.  He had just jumped into my lane, behind me, and the movement caught my attention.  I looked into the mirror to see what he'd done, and if he was going to hit me.  My eyes were off the road in front of me for maybe 2secs.  I turned back, and the light was already yellow.  I knew if I stopped, he might hit me, or I may lay the bike down (and still get hit), for lack of traction, so I went, hoping I had enough time.  Apparently, I misjudged by a ½ second.

Choices are: 1. Pay the fine. 2. Plead Not guilty by Mail.  3. Appear before a Justice.

I choose #3...

So,.. does anyone have any tips for me, on helping to swing the odds to my favor?
 
My biggest hope is that I don't get some judge that hates motorcycles...

[CWO4GUNNER]

It's better if you have small kids you can dress up in tattered cloths to take with you. In any event go dresses in some ragged clothing  and torn shoes  if you have them. Tell the judge that you were avoiding an accident as you could see and hear the skidding car behind you as it was about to hit you and had no choice but to move into the intersection on a yellow light but as far as you could tell it never turned red. Also tell him the only reason your driving your husbands motorcycle is because the car is broke down and you are trying to earn extra money to have it fixed also one or two Christmas presents. Ask Your Honor if there is any way possible he could give you a bit of mercy during this hard time.
   That should do it.

Oh yeah also put some gaunt markup, dirt your hands and take a bit of Chinese chili oil just before going in to make you cough allot

[rkfire]

I think you're desciption of the folllowing vehicle should help your case. I think there are times when a law may be broken legally in order to avoid a collision, such as this occurance. For example, an oncoming vehicle crosses over to your side of the road towards you. Of course your recource is to cross the white line to your right, or cross the yellow line to your left in order to avoid the collision.

You should try to find out the technical details of the camera system too if you can. Where and when is the picture taken. I'm thinking, is it possible in your line of sight the light is yellow allowing you to continue, but changes to red while you're mid-intersection?

You guys up there have those outfits called ex-coppers or whatever, I wonder if they would be useful. I foften hear they get people off for technicalities (is the lousy pic one of those?)

[CWO4GUNNER]

Or you can do what I did last time I got my ticket speeding on I40. Just take the online traffic school course for $100 which take it completely off your record for insurance purposes. That is if that an option where you live.

[Sven]

My take:  I advocate going to court and putting yourself and your actions and motives in the most positive light possible, without being dishonest.

Say nothing about poor traction, the quality of your tires, etc.  Do not defend why you were riding a motorcycle (unless you have a good story, like "while it was really colder than I prefer to ride, my car was in the shop (or has been leaking oil, or needs a brake, job, etc.), so I had to bundle up and hope nobody would hit me...".  Not suggesting you lie, but if there was ANY reason you did not take a car, use it. 

Admit that you understand how dangerous it is to run a red light, but underplay it in favor of the situation.  "As a motorcyclist, I understand more than most drivers how dangerous it is when vehicles run red lights.  As you know, I entered the intersection one-half second after the light changed to red.  Unfortunately, my attention was behind me, due to an erratic driver...".

Again, without telling anything untrue (although the other driver will not be present, nor will a cop, since this was an automated camera), state every little erratic behavior the driver demonstrated.  While looking behind you to see where he was, and possibly looking for a way to get over and let him pass, you looked ahead to see the light turning yellow.  While you were not speeding, you were simply afraid to make a quick stop for fear of being hit by the nutjob behind you.

"In summary, your honor, I would rather be standing here today and paying a fine, if I must, than to be lying in a box six feet under."

[kako]

if you can speak French really good. go for a French judge.. it is a well known fact that French people like French people... and they hate me(even though technical i am French). because i switch there French stop signs for English ones  (ps if any French people take offense to this.. sorry.. its suppose to be taken lightly.. not seriously.) on a more serious note tho... my next door neighbor is on the force. and i told him my lience plate on my photo radar ticket was barely readable.. he told me i should have faught it in court.. but if i was a judge.. i would have laughed at myself if i tried to present a case like mine..

[stormi]

It's better if you have small kids you can dress up in tattered cloths to take with you. In any event go dresses in some ragged clothing  and torn shoes  if you have them. Tell the judge that you were avoiding an accident as you could see and hear the skidding car behind you as it was about to hit you and had no choice but to move into the intersection on a yellow light but as far as you could tell it never turned red. Also tell him the only reason your driving your husbands motorcycle is because the car is broke down and you are trying to earn extra money to have it fixed also one or two Christmas presents. Ask Your Honor if there is any way possible he could give you a bit of mercy during this hard time.
   That should do it.

Oh yeah also put some gaunt markup, dirt your hands and take a bit of Chinese chili oil just before going in to make you cough allot

I was thinking the exact opposite.  Go in dressed well, but not flashy, and talk like an upstanding member of society.   

edit: especially cos it's not cheap to own a motorcycle here.  That would blow me right out of the water to say I was destitute, and had a 2002 919 under me.

Maybe I could ask the judge to be nice, given that it's so close to both my birthday and Christmas? 

The facts hopefully will stand for themselves.  For instance, when you're going 35kph, and see the light is yellow, you're already on top of the line in order to cross it at 0.5 sec after the light changes.  Realistically speaking, I could have been doing a lot worse, and they would never have known I was there.  I'll probably not mention that part though. 

oh,.. and the bike is registered in my name, hence the reason I have to appear.

[stormi]

I think you're desciption of the folllowing vehicle should help your case. I think there are times when a law may be broken legally in order to avoid a collision, such as this occurance. For example, an oncoming vehicle crosses over to your side of the road towards you. Of course your recource is to cross the white line to your right, or cross the yellow line to your left in order to avoid the collision.

I think that once the ticket is issued though, the usual response is:  "well, it was still breaking the law and at least you don't have an accident to deal with"  I'm hoping that this judge will be benevolent enough to hear me out and realize I wasn't being a hooligan.

You should try to find out the technical details of the camera system too if you can. Where and when is the picture taken. I'm thinking, is it possible in your line of sight the light is yellow allowing you to continue, but changes to red while you're mid-intersection?

I'm not sure I follow here.  I know the address where the camera is, I'm going out there this weekend to time the light.  One thing that happens notoriously here is that the time for the yellow is short, especially when there's a camera at the intersection. 

The way the camera is set up, is you have to cross the stop line after the light changes in order to trigger the camera.   That's my understanding of it anyway, and the way it looks in the pics.

The thing that really gets me is that the damned RLC sensors are able to pick up my bike, but the sensors to change the lights when there's traffic at it aren't.   

You guys up there have those outfits called ex-coppers or whatever, I wonder if they would be useful. I foften hear they get people off for technicalities (is the lousy pic one of those?)

 

We do have those guys up here, but I won't engage them for two reasons.
1.  We have a friend who used them, and there's no proof the guy ever went to the courthouse on the day.  They charged their money, but he still has a ticket outstanding and no info on whatever happened. 

2.  To pay $500 for a $287 ticket with no demerits really doesn't make sense.

[stormi]

Or you can do what I did last time I got my ticket speeding on I40. Just take the online traffic school course for $100 which take it completely off your record for insurance purposes. That is if that an option where you live.

No demerits on a photo ticket here.  Just really big fines.  Because they can't "prove" who was driving, you're charged as an owner, not as the "perp".

[stormi]

if you can speak French really good. go for a French judge.. it is a well known fact that French people like French people... and they hate me(even though technical i am French). because i switch there French stop signs for English ones  (ps if any French people take offense to this.. sorry.. its suppose to be taken lightly.. not seriously.) on a more serious note tho... my next door neighbor is on the force. and i told him my lience plate on my photo radar ticket was barely readable.. he told me i should have faught it in court.. but if i was a judge.. i would have laughed at myself if i tried to present a case like mine..

I read french well enough to not have to turn the can around in the store, but I can't speak it well enough to not offend french people.

What would the ticket have to be for you to get laughed out of court?

It looks to me like the photos are manipulated for light and contrast, to make them readable.  I have no idea what the originals look like.  The fact that the two full-sized pics are nearly no contrast and terribly light, so I can barely see which light is lit on the tree, and the close up of Blue's license plate shows him as black tells me something has been manipulated.   I -assume- though that this is "acceptable" manipulation.

 

[stormi]

My take:  I advocate going to court and putting yourself and your actions and motives in the most positive light possible, without being dishonest.

Precisely my take on it. That way too, it's hard to trip me up in a lie.  I'm so bad at that. 

Say nothing about poor traction, the quality of your tires, etc.  Do not defend why you were riding a motorcycle (unless you have a good story, like "while it was really colder than I prefer to ride, my car was in the shop (or has been leaking oil, or needs a brake, job, etc.), so I had to bundle up and hope nobody would hit me...".  Not suggesting you lie, but if there was ANY reason you did not take a car, use it.

How about if I brought the bike, I could share my client's parking spot in her secured parking area, but if I didn't there was no room, and it was a  bad area of town, and I would have had to walk alone to the bike or car, if it was still there when I got back?   We've actually car pooled since then to avoid this problem in the future, but that's not always practical, as it wasn't that day.

Admit that you understand how dangerous it is to run a red light, but underplay it in favor of the situation.  "As a motorcyclist, I understand more than most drivers how dangerous it is when vehicles run red lights.  As you know, I entered the intersection one-half second after the light changed to red.  Unfortunately, my attention was behind me, due to an erratic driver...".

Again, without telling anything untrue (although the other driver will not be present, nor will a cop, since this was an automated camera), state every little erratic behavior the driver demonstrated.  While looking behind you to see where he was, and possibly looking for a way to get over and let him pass, you looked ahead to see the light turning yellow.  While you were not speeding, you were simply afraid to make a quick stop for fear of being hit by the nutjob behind you.

Well put.  Honestly, I think what killed me on this is that I was doing 35kph.  If I'd been going the speed limit, or even closer to it, I wouldn't have been as close to the line ( or conversely over it) and in a way, had more time to react. At 35, I was on top of the line almost before I could see the color of the light after turning my head back, but no time to stop because the line was right there.

"In summary, your honor, I would rather be standing here today and paying a fine, if I must, than to be lying in a box six feet under."

I might not put the paying a fine thing back in his head, but I definitely get the direction you're headed in. 

[rkfire]

I think you're desciption of the folllowing vehicle should help your case. I think there are times when a law may be broken legally in order to avoid a collision, such as this occurance. For example, an oncoming vehicle crosses over to your side of the road towards you. Of course your recource is to cross the white line to your right, or cross the yellow line to your left in order to avoid the collision.

I think that once the ticket is issued though, the usual response is:  "well, it was still breaking the law and at least you don't have an accident to deal with"  I'm hoping that this judge will be benevolent enough to hear me out and realize I wasn't being a hooligan.

I'm suggesting that having to run what you believed was a yellow light, was necessary and excusable because of eratic driving of the guy behind you. I would suggest that if it were a real cop, and not a camera, the cop would give you a break and want to know the description of the other car, and what he was doing.

Something similar happened to me years ago. A guy harassing me in his car got out with his friend, both armed with rather large knives. I ran that light, took a left and saw a cop parked. I purposely ran that light too in order to get pulled over. The cop asked for a description, and they went looking for these guys. Running the light was NECESSARY in that instance, and I doubt any cop would ticket for it, or any judge find guilt.

[stormi]

I'm suggesting that having to run what you believed was a yellow light, was necessary and excusable because of eratic driving of the guy behind you. I would suggest that if it were a real cop, and not a camera, the cop would give you a break and want to know the description of the other car, and what he was doing.

Something similar happened to me years ago. A guy harassing me in his car got out with his friend, both armed with rather large knives. I ran that light, took a left and saw a cop parked. I purposely ran that light too in order to get pulled over. The cop asked for a description, and they went looking for these guys. Running the light was NECESSARY in that instance, and I doubt any cop would ticket for it, or any judge find guilt.

Wow! I'd have to run a LOT of red lights, and speed like crazy to actually find a cop that would pull me over.  That said,... most of the cops I've seen would likely make me stay there, call in the other driver, and STILL give me a ticket, cos I was doing something I knew was wrong.   

I hope you're right though, cos it's my only real defense.

[CWO4GUNNER]

Well what the heck it worked for my mom in 1972 when she dragged my nephews on behalf of my brotherinlaw who couldn't afford it so my mom did a Parry Mason and she got the ticket dismissed. Anyway it was a funny story so I thought it might generate a laugh.

It's better if you have small kids you can dress up in tattered cloths to take with you. In any event go dresses in some ragged clothing  and torn shoes  if you have them. Tell the judge that you were avoiding an accident as you could see and hear the skidding car behind you as it was about to hit you and had no choice but to move into the intersection on a yellow light but as far as you could tell it never turned red. Also tell him the only reason your driving your husbands motorcycle is because the car is broke down and you are trying to earn extra money to have it fixed also one or two Christmas presents. Ask Your Honor if there is any way possible he could give you a bit of mercy during this hard time.
   That should do it.

Oh yeah also put some gaunt markup, dirt your hands and take a bit of Chinese chili oil just before going in to make you cough allot

I was thinking the exact opposite.  Go in dressed well, but not flashy, and talk like an upstanding member of society.   

edit: especially cos it's not cheap to own a motorcycle here.  That would blow me right out of the water to say I was destitute, and had a 2002 919 under me.

Maybe I could ask the judge to be nice, given that it's so close to both my birthday and Christmas? 

The facts hopefully will stand for themselves.  For instance, when you're going 35kph, and see the light is yellow, you're already on top of the line in order to cross it at 0.5 sec after the light changes.  Realistically speaking, I could have been doing a lot worse, and they would never have known I was there.  I'll probably not mention that part though. 

oh,.. and the bike is registered in my name, hence the reason I have to appear.

[kako]

i dont think the light colour will help.. as being colour blind and some times not being able to tell the difference in the colour of traffic lights, i was tested for which place the light is.. on the order from left to right. and up and down when i got my lisence. my ticket was for 30+ over speed limit... but in the pic the windows are down and arms are out... just an over all bad picture to try to fight in court... i figue i got lucky... because when i ever i speed on that road is when im "testing" and get to much higher then i did when i got my ticket... i got it right at my bday to.. (over 230 dollars!!!) but my pic the colour was fine... ish... they must have horrible w/b on their camera.. my pic was blurry tho. mabye because i was going sooo fast  but i was making the lots of money then.. so that was pocket change...wish i didnt spend my money as much back then. now i am a starving student.