cold running prob

[Chris H]

What grade plugs do you have in? the cr9's can give start problems compared to the 8's.
Interuse- i stopped the slow warm up problem by fitting the cbr600 F3 thermo, it holds the engine at a slightly higher temp and helps a lot.

[banditv]

i just use the oem plugs what ever they are.
put new plugs in it and they only have bout 1000km on them.
i put the needles back to the middle of the 5 slots last night and it started good as this morning. not as well as it did on the richer setting but started well, still only needed choke for bout 15 seconds before it would idle properly.
while it wasnt quite as cold this morning it was still only 4 or 5 degrees C it ran well, warmed up quickly and didnt foul the plugs today.
still pulls fairly cleanly but not as good as the richer mixture but acceptable . after work tonight, started fine with no choke and ran nicely.
so after nearly a year of sorting one bug after another , i hopefully have it sorted.
next on the list are some clip on bars, rearset pegs and a small flyscreen.
would love to do a cafe racer job on it

[banditv]

geez i'm starting to get sick of this bike!
yet another oil and filter change due to flooding carbs.
after my last play with them , it took a week or so to notice the oil level creeping up so i just stuck it on the shed until last week when i finally decided i could be bothered with it again.
pulled the carbs off, checked the float levels, and my classic brit bike nutter supervisor had got them waaaay to high.
took them to the dealer, chucked the head mechanic $20 to set them right.
put the carbs back on, new oil and filter ( 4th oil change in 2000km @ $80 a go)
primed the carbs and thumbed the starter. no go, gave it full choke and bingo. bit rough for a few seconds but she was away.
took her for a wee ride to warm it up and see how it went.
had a big stutter if i tryed to give it to much throttle until it had warmed up, but once warm it was fine.
got home and noticed the idle had dropped off to 900 on the trail tech dash so wound it up to 1500.
rode to work the next morning, started fine first thing and again at the end of the day.
went for an open road fang on the way to the parents for dinner and she pulled great in top from 50kmh to 120.
got to parents and the idle had crept up slightly so i'm guessing its maybe a touch lean at idle now. does that sound right to anyone?
just going to keep an eye on the oil level for a while and hope the level stays put.
also , does anyone out there no how hard the engine should be revving at 100 km/h. the trail tech says about 10k rpm, where i have seen you tube vids of these things doing 8k at 100.
if thats right, either the previous owner put a larger counter shaft sprocket on it or the trail tech is way out. rear sprocket is standard 47 t from memory, have to pull half the side off the motor to check the counter shaft.

[Squishy]

also , does anyone out there no how hard the engine should be revving at 100 km/h. the trail tech says about 10k rpm, where i have seen you tube vids of these things doing 8k at 100.
if thats right, either the previous owner put a larger counter shaft sprocket on it or the trail tech is way out. rear sprocket is standard 47 t from memory, have to pull half the side off the motor to check the counter shaft.

Mine (stock) does 120km/h at 8000rpm in 6th gear.
But for precise and true values, check http://www.gearingcommander.com/. It has the correct settings for b400

[rider123]

Sounds like your a bit lean at idle. Turn the mixture screws out a 1/4 turn. Does the bike when lightly revved hang up a little at idle then fall back down? That's a sure sign your a bit lean on the screws. As far as the RPM is concerned I'm assuming you are in top gear correct? You aren't missing one? Ie think it's a 5 speed when it's a 6 speed? If so and the stock is around 8000 rpm at highway speed then the previous owner did a sprocket change either at the front or the back. You'll have to count the teeth then compare whats in the shop manual.

And where the hell do you get oil at $80 for a change? Did you fly to Iraq personally and drill it yourself? Did you get some scuba gear and go to the bottom of the North Sea to do some underwater drilling? If your paying $80 for oil go somewhere else. I pay $5 a liter so oil on my bandit 1200 is like $15 for normal Dino 10w40. Hell the good shit is about $8 a liter for semi-synthetic. Someone is taking you for ride my friend, and not in a good way.

You didn't really need to change the filter even with gas contamination. I would have just flushed some cheap ass dollar store oil through the bike and flushed it out. Would have saved you some cash.

Do you do your own oil changes? It really saves the cash. All you need is a funnel and a tinfoil turkey baster pan and some empty 2 liter coke bottles to store the old oil in. You should be changing the filter every other oil change. If your changing it every change your just wasting money.

It's easy just undo the oil pan nut and let the oil drain in the tinfoil turkey pan. Then when done just bend the tinfoil into a spout and get the funnel on top of a 2 liter coke bottle and pour the used oil in there. Then just refill with your favorite oil, drive to your local recycling centre drop the oil off throw the tinfoil pan away and your done.

For the oil filter you can either buy an adapter for like $20 or get a strap wrench for like $10. Your choice.

[banditv]

my bandit is a 250v, so they are geared quite short. and yes its in top, i'm bad for going for 7th gear on the open road.
my old gj73a was pulling the same revs at 100kmh, but i thought suzuki changed the internal ratios to suit having a lower redline for the gj77a. i have seen a youtube vid of one pulling 8k at 100kmh which i'd think is bout right for the motor.
the idle does hang up for a second and settles down to a steady 1500 to 1600 rpm, which is bout where my gj73 idled.
on the price of oil, motor bike oil down here is phucking expensive, i usually put castrol  power 1 gps semi synthetic in it which at my rate putting it through my work account is $55 +gst and a filter from suzuki is $25 + gst. filters for the 250v are cartridge type and not spin on . i didnt change the filter last time, so it was due this time round.
you yanks would fall over if you knew what the good stuff is worth.
i won a 4l pack of fuchs silkolene fully synthetic 10w40 race oil which retails at bout $100 here. even my work price is 80 odd bucks.
i do all my own servicing bar valve clearances on the bike, but thats just coz i cant be bothered draining the water etc just to pull of the cam cover, and coz its the v model, i'm not sure of the clearances anyway. and they are nice and quiet so dont need doing.
bike is running nice at the mo, so will try the idle screws 1/4 turn more out in the week end.
the bike does have an after market mid pipe and can so could that have screwed up the mixtures? i'm thinking not the bottom end but prob the mid range and def the top end. but it pulls so nice all the way to 18k and dosnt really heat up much even after a 80 or 90 km ride. only heats up bout an extra 5 degrees c over what it runs at around town. its never got above 77 degrees c on the trailtech , even on a hot day. and hot here is 25 to 30 degrees c.

[rider123]

Well it's possible the previous owner just popped an aftermarket pipe on there without jetting it properly so you're running really lean. However don't sweat it, if you shim the needles or you're lucky and have adjustable needles, and adjust the mixture screws a bit you'll be good for now. Really if you want to be super good, you can take an outside carb floatbowl off and take a look at what jets you are running. If they are stock and you have an aftermarket exhaust system, you may actually be losing a bit of power as the already lean factory jetting just gets leaner. Generally if you're not modding the airbox or using the stock filter, if you up the main jets 1 or 2 sizes you should be good. I'm not sure on a 250 but you may get another 2 or 3 HP which for a 250 is alot if jetted properly. It will also drive better and be a little less hard to warm up. Jets are super cheap so don't fret it. Usually they are around $3 each or so. They were so cheap I sent a set to Octane to help him out because it's hard to get jets in the area of Australia is in. If you're in Australia your in luck as you probably have adjustable needles and open mixture screws, in Canada we get the US bikes so we have to use shims and drill out the little EPA plugs, but it does the same thing. If you richen up your needle a notch and maybe a 1/4 turn out on the mixture screws you should be good. Let us know how it goes.

I suspect it's probably stock jets in there, so it may be worth it to find out what you have. Changing out the mainjets is not that hard and we can walk you through it if you like. Also while the carbs are off you can do important maintenance like check float heights, set mixture screws etc. Hell my float heights were all over the place from the factory! So were the mixture screws. Unitizing all the float heights and mixture screws did wonders for smoothness and power on my Bandit 1200. If you you unitize everything in there and go up say 1 or 2 mainjets and sync the carbs afterwards I think you would be very very happy with the results. You don't need a carb sync tool at $100+ dollars you just need a stick, $5 in clear tubing, some motor oil and some duct tape to build a ghetto manometer which I think does a better job as it uses a pressure differential system instead of dials or slides that can get out of wack.

Here my thread with my experience with it if your interested.
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13207.0

Mine was way more ghetto than the picture there, if you think that possible!

[banditv]

well luckily enough i'm not in australia, i'm in new zealand ( just a  poke at any ockers reading ).
mines a jap import bike with adjustable needles, 5 slots to choose from.
i have tried raising the needles 1 slot before, but that was with the float levels way to high so was prob waay to rich.
when i moved them and went for a test ride, it ran sweet as , went for bout a 50 mile ride, round town and open road. ran perfect, pulled well, idled well when cold and hot. problem was it was nearly 30 degrees c. a few days later when i rode to work, it was just above freezing and it fouled the plugs inside 3 miles. had to rev the crap out of it to keep it running.
so i put the needles back to stock position.
but now since the float levels are ok again (i hope) i might try lifting them again  and see what happens.
i think the carbs need to be balanced as well as it sounds like its running on 3 holes until i get past bout 3k rpm.
but i know these bikes idle a bit lumpy at the best of times and the aftermarket muffler is really harsh sounding at low revs up to bout 8k rpm where it starts to sound good. sounds phuckin mean once the valve timing changes.
am going to grab the infra red thermo gun and check the temp of all the pipes when i get to work tomorrow which will give me an idea on which ones arnt running the same or similar to each other.
carb parts here are way expensive, i replaced diaphrams,float bowl gaskets and the wee o rings beside the diaphrams and ( please sit down for this bit ) it cost me over $400. i wanted to replace all the float valves but they are $100 each from the dealer. the bike cost me $2k to buy and another $1200 to get back on the road before i started have carb problems. plus a battery and a reg/rect.
i could have bought a low mileage bike from a dealer for less than what this has cost me so far.
i'm thinking bout balancing the carbs feeler gauge style in the weekend so will check the all the jet sizes for later reference.
a work mate has some jet drills, so bigger jets may not cost me a thing yet. will see how i go.

[rider123]

Yeah I had the same problem on one of my carbs when whomever was drunk at the factory put the float height a full mm and a half richer than normal. Needless to say that cylinder was rich as hell. Once I set the float heights back to where they should be all was hunky dory. I would highly recommend NOT DRILLING the mainjets. I've seen it go terribly, terribly wrong. So wrong it contributed to a guy selling his bike over it. If you have problems sourcing jets without having to sell you ass on street(Wow it's expensive there :-)) just tell me what you need and I'll go buy them for you and give them to you for free so it doesn't totally screw the bike up. I think it took about a week to 10 days for Octane to get the jets I sent him with the cheapest postage.

Trust me those jets are finely made and at only $3 each is not worth having it all go to hell. I doubt even if your the best driller in the world you can get the same accuracy as a machine. Also the jets are not just a hole they are tapered somewhat and shaped like a bell mouth to ensure smooth fuel delivery. phucking with that is not a good idea. You may have one cylinder perfect, the next one lean, the next one rich, etc etc. For all the awesome riding done in Australia and New Zealand it sure is hard to get parts there. It like you have to buy an inflatable raft and paddle your way to Japan or something to get parts.

If I ever want to get out of the IT business I'd just move to Australia or New Zealand and become a motorcycle dealer, what the hell did I waste two years going to college for?? I'm dumb. I could become a millionaire on a couple of valve adjustments and an oil change or two   Have you thought about opening a bike shop? It may be your ticket to riches. Maybe I should start a mail order part business catering to our ANZAC friends. Even if I charged you double it would still be alot cheaper than what your paying. Geez you guys really pay through the nose, I was drinking some pop and when I looked your cost I think I puked a little in my mouth. Just a little..... No wonder Octane was glad I sent him those jets, I thought nothing of it as they wern't being used and I don't mind helping people out. The $12 I spent he would have maybe had to add a zero on the end? Who knows?

If you're totally stuck and can't find anywhere to get jets, just post back and tell me what you need. I don't want to be contributing to poverty in New Zealand. It'll be sent the cheapest way possible so it won't be fast but it will get there eventually. I might have to send Octane some more jets anyway as he needs to go up on his mains but is having problems as well finding jets, maybe we could combine the order as I'm going up so I can use a K&N filter with my stage 1. I'm just waiting until it gets warm enough to ride.

Also the feeler guage method of syncing the carbs doesn't really work all that well, I've tried it. It's due to the microscopic differences in the carbs, some maybe slightly richer or leaner, etc. The best and cheapest is the pressure differential method with 2 carbs at a time. Since the carbs are playing a tug of war they are either in sync or they or not, there is no room for error with dials or slides. It uses physics so you know your good. If you have the time read my post on it, it's stupidly easy to build and use and I believe it's actually superior to the ones you buy for $100. So you sync 1 to 2 then 3 to 4, then attach 2 and 3 carbs together and sync 2 to 3 which will sync 1 and 2 to 3 and 4 and you're done. Since its so accurate you'll be done in no time, no crazy bouncy needles or slides, etc. I only did 3 and 4 because of the demented placement of the carb vacuum nipples, I needed a bent needle nose and even with only 2 synced up it made a huge difference. I had sort of a miss when revving it because number 3 cylinder wasn't pulling enough. Once set with just 4 the miss totally went away and I go some more power back with the engine not having to drag a lazy cylinder around.

But before you sync it, it might be a good idea to adjust the mixture screws, needles etc. so you know your good then a sync afterwards and you'll be plenty happy. In fact the most expensive part for you is using the 200-300cc of oil in the tubing!

[banditv]

thats bloody good of you to offer jets if i have no luck mate. bloody good of you.
i checked the temps of the primaries when i got to work and number 1 was only 50 degress c ,2 and 3 were both with in a couple of degrees of 80 c and 4 was just on 100c. so am guessing that 1 is rich as all hell and 4 is lean.
well richer and leaner than 2 and 3 anyway. those temps are after a 10 minute ride and idling for bout a minute.
got it home this evening and with 1 and 4  screwed the mixture screws right in til lightly seated and went 2 and 3/4 turns out and started it up. instantly the idle was a touch lower at about 1300 and was sounding alot more even, still sounds a bit lumpy but has lost the running on 3 holes sound.
has a slight hesitation on the throttle, but i havent found a cv carb that does respond instantly without having accelerator pumps.
but it does respond pretty quickly and seems cleanly to throttle.
will find out tomorrow as i didnt have time to go for a ride to test it out ( wife is 8 months preggie and have 3 year old at home with chicken pox., guess who had to cook dinner !)
if they are still not even, i'll borrow the ray gun and have a bit more off a play tomorrow night, but if the carbs are out of balance its a bit hard to say if they are right.
love the home made carby balancer eh! will be making one this weekend if not before. have a spare bit of engine oil round some where and have empty acid bottle at work for aux fuel tank. just need a stick and tubing. the pressure differential idea sounds pretty good to me, have balanced carbs on an old gpx 250 kwacker using "proper manometers" and they do bounce round a bit.
even the checking float levels with the tubing sounds  a good idea.
will keep you posted
cheers again
lyndon.
p,s if you ever get down this part of the world round end of november, we have the burt munro bike rally and am sure i could find a spare bed and bike.

[rider123]

That miss at idle could be sync. I had the same thing, turned out number 3 was lazy, once all synced it went away. The temps should all be about 15-20 degrees Celsius of each other with the inner cylinders being slightly hotter due to reduced airflow over the cylinders. I would sync it first, then adjust the screws as necessary. Is number 1 plug leaner than the others? Check for simple shit first like loose intake boots, etc. Before resorting to adjustments on the carbs. Could be that the float height is slightly high on that cylinder. If after a sync it's still a little lazy you can turn that cylinder an 1/8th or 1/4 turn out over the other cylinders. Maybe for fun try another 1/4 turn out on all the cylinders and see if it's even smoother. The reason the idle went down is it's probably racing a bit with the lean mixture. Remember you have an aftermarket mid-pipe and end can and I'm guessing stock jets, you're going to have to compensate a bit for the free flowing exhaust. If the guy before you didn't jet it(we see that alot) it may have to be slightly rich down low to compensate a bit for the lean mainjet.

 To determine if you are lean or rich at idle do this:

Lightly blip the throttle, if the rpm's hang up at idle then settle back down you are lean.

Lightly blip the throtte, if the rpm's come back below set idle then recover, then you're too rich.

If a cylinder is lazy it's going to be dragged around by the others and run artificially lean. Try the jihad style manometer sync then have a look at where you need to go. It only takes like 20 mins and a screwdriver and some tubing to do it properly.

Remember when you do it jihad style the levels don't have to be even just not pulling on one side or the other. Once it looks pretty good, slightly give it some throttle to 2000 rpm or so to make sure as the higher rpm will show the balance a bit more. If they are both pulling  the same with some light throttle. Move on to the next two cylinders, then sync 2 and 3, which will sync pairs 1 and 2 to 3 and 4 and your good.

So for simplicity:
Sync 1 to 2.
Sync 3 to 4
Sync 2 to 3 which will sync the pairs 1 and 2 to 3 and 4 and you're done. Have a beer.

[rider123]

Geez it's kind of crazy you guys in the ANZAC region are having parts problems. WIth the amount of track winners and vibrant motorcycle communities you should be swimming in parts. Maybe we should have a sponsorship program like Christian's children's fund or something where we sponser some guys with parts. Something like this:

"Only you can end fuel starvation Down Under!"

"Hi folks, Rider123 is here with a special message for all you motorcyclists out there. I want to talk to you today about an issue thats dear to my heart. Fuel starvation in Australia and New Zealand! THese poor fuel starved motorcyclists can't aquire the proper jets and carb parts necessary to function as a normal person in society. These starving motorcyclists can't even afford basic carb parts without your help.

"It's really bad down here", said vetran racer Michael Doohan. "Even with factory sponsership I had to win my first race with paper mache jets. By the last lap they had fully disintigrated making the bike horridly rich." "I had to do some pretty desperate measures to get the carb parts we needed to win races." When pressed further about what kind of desperate measures. In a scene out of a courtroom drama, he held up a naked Barbie doll pointed at her nether regions and forlornly croaked "The bad man touched me here for float bowl screws!".

All kinds of reports are comming in from people using sheepskin for float bowl gaskets to people resorting to using spent .22 Long rifle cases for pilot jets and .22 Shorts for main jets. Please give generously, that $12 in jets can restore hope to a fuel starved motorcyclists. Only you can stop the insanity of these starving motorcyclists by sending them the mainjets they need to function in modern society, not only will you be restoring their top end powerband, but their dignity as well.

[banditv]

dont for get burt munro made everything in his indian motor bar the crankcases.
john britten  heat treated his engine parts with an oxy acethylene plant and a 60 liter drum of water and designed the body work with welding wire and bondo.
 thats pretty funny, but sadly very true.
parts are very expensive, otherwise i'd be building a 65 hp handgrenade for the wee bike.
a second hand motor is round 2k with out carbs or pipes.

but on a brighter note, the ray gun read far more even in the number 1 and 4 temps. both had evened out at 60 to 65 degrees c and 2 and 3 were both about 70 degrees this morning when i got to work.
sounding far nicer and running without the hesitation while cold.
idles a bit grumpy when warm, but am thinking a carb sync will help

[rider123]

Oh yeah it will help for sure. Mine sounded like a limp lama before I did only 2 cylinders(just too damn cold in winter). I had a miss also when reving it because number 3 cylinder was super lazy and being dragged around by the other cylinders making it lean. If you try the cheap ghetto manometer way you'll be suprised how much smoother and snappier it will run with all the cylinders pulling their weight. You'll know it's getting better because the idle will increase slightly with the engine not having to lug around dead weight. That bandit 250v is one of the nicer 250's out there. If you can sync everything up and get the bike running nicely you can take a float bowl off and tell me what jets your running and maybe go up 1 on the mainjet and get an extra few ponies to boot.

If everything is all hunky dory, when you sell the bike you may get some of the money back from the parts you bought. Keep those receipts!

[banditv]

i do really like the bike, so am planning on keeping it for a while yet, even once i can be bothered getting my big bike licence.
i've always had a thing for 250s.
think its just me loving the engineering in the wee things.
how can you not love something so small making such good power, roughly 11 or 12 hp out of a cylinder thats only 60 odd cc.
and an 18k rpm limiter, they do sound cool with a big pipe doing big numbers like that.
who cares if its flat out at 110mph flat on the tank.
the only disadvantage to the v model is that no one really knows much bout them in new zealand.
wee bikes are usualy only bought by people on their L plates like me( even tho i've been riding dirt bikes for nigh on 30 years )
and discarded as soon as they get their full licence and can ride a big bike.
there are roads not far from me where you can get a knee down at less than 30 mph on a wee bike.

but yeah, have all i need bar the tubing for the home made balancer tool, and have the bosses permission to grab the ray gun for the weekend. so a tweaking session is on the cards for this weekend after some apprenticeship exams.
there isnt enough room to get a float bowl off in situ so will have to take the carbs off for a main jet number. will do that on friday night. getting a dab hand at taking carbs off this thing now :)