Author Topic: Intake cam in exhaust pt 2  (Read 8176 times)

Offline Herr Tod

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2007, 08:28:41 AM »
Idle is crap because it's too lean, I'm running a 30 pilot jet, which was correct with the exhaust cam in. The rattling is quite loud and seems to come from everywhere :shock:

Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2007, 08:32:10 AM »
now tomac when you put your intake in the exhaust you removed the sprocket and and put it back on like it was the exhaust right sorta facing the same direction as if it where the exhaust?
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Offline tomacGTi

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2007, 09:34:42 AM »
Yep, double checked against the other exhaust cam as well. Everything this time around is set up by the book. I've been trying to wrap my head around this rattle/induction noise thing for a little bit now. Jay, are you getting this sort of thing as well? Like I said, in higher loads it isn't as apparant but down low it's more the case.

The last time I experienced something that sounded close to that was on my VW 16v when the cam timing was over-advanced to the point where you could hear the valves just about knicking themselves. Obviously on a larger scale but similar.

30 pilots, holy shit! Explains why I'm at 3.5 turns out or so. With the 17.5p, stock float height and 105MJ it's idling fine when warm albeit a bit recalcitrant sometimes.

Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2007, 10:04:39 AM »
i had something going on but i couldn't put a finger on it as i had slot cam sprockets and was messing about with the cam timing but i ended up racing it any way and felt a difference but i had a bunch of issues like i was speed restricted in the top two gears and was fighting that. but i took that out cause it kept blowing head gaskets from the surface not being perfectly machined then I timed my cam wrong and broke a valve and that is where it sits now but was going to continue with the research with the cams as the one time i raced i had liked it . All i can say is keep an eye on it and if you have a problem id be truly sorry and donate some parts to the cause. But you all have to understand that i groove , cut, pocket , mill, deck , slot whatever it takes ive done almost all but i keep terrible notes and may be fuzzy on some of the things ive done lol thats why i keep spares and i understand that most cant afford or have the knowledge to be able to work on there own bike so its good you 2 can wrench on things. If you had a bore scope or if your local auto zone rented one id say look in the bore for the exhaust touching the pistons and thats the only thing i can think of i have a set of stock pistons cut 10 thou on the pockets that im not using but i can remember why i cut them could be one of 3 things ive milled 10 off my head , 10 off my cylinder or because of the cam swap. one thing i can say for sure is ive taken 10 off the cylinder and ran all stock with no problems so make your own judgments on that one. with my big bore since i had to mill the cylinder again because of the indentation i had made on the cylinder laying other parts on it while it was on a shelf im currently running 10 off head 10 off cylinder big bore kit with 2 base gaskets.
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
has been a wera expert #610 lol

Offline tomacGTi

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2007, 12:33:19 PM »
Thing is though, the cams are theoretically asymmetrical so all things considered, it should be fine. Even eyeballing the cams themselves, they're pretty much identical, just a slight bit more lift. Ideally yes they should be timed to one another and run on a dyno to see what's effective but I don't have the time and money to invest in something like that.

I have something done similar to the intake cam of my VW where I use a modified exhaust cam as the intake. Timing unmodified and just dropped in, it worked fine all the way to the 7200rev cutoff but when the sprocket was brought in to smooth the overlap, the cam became mush smoother though the top end hit wasn't as pronounced.

The only thing I can think of is that the lift may be too great for the rockers (since the exhaust rockers are different: thicker  versus the intake) and at certain RPMs may be floating. Could even be coil bind at those revs due to the rockers/lift/speed (I haven't the time nore the machine to check springs). Something to compare to existing camset #'s out there to see if that could be the case.

I wish I knew someone with a boroscope because that would answere alot of questions quickly. Since everything is so damn small, it's almost impossible to peer down the plug hole down the piston to see if there has been contact but I also believe if they've been touching, something should have let go by now. I mean, the plugs even look fine.

There are lots of variables in what can be causing the "rattle" and I think that it could even the be the cam chain as well. Things turn over fine by hand and I have run the thing to 14ks with no real ill effects. All the marks line up and it fires up as if it were stock so I really don't know. It's going to have to wait till I get a couple of more miles on it and peel off the VC and check tolerances etc.

The joys of experimenting and tuning. Like I said before, I'm happy with it as it's made the bike more rideable for me but what works for some won't work for others.

If you have a chance to get over to SVRider, this is apparantly a pretty hot-shit mod for them and they even use cams across generations looking for the correct lift and overlap. Interesting reading there. They've got dyno plots to prove it and like anything, without changing displacement, all you're doing is idealizing what you have and you'll lose/gain in different places, moving the powerband around.

One also has to remember that the stock cams are what Suzuki thinks is the most ideal for the broadest range of what the bike will be used for. It may be tame but it's the most consistant. Anything else outside of the prescribed box has to comprimise something.

Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2007, 12:50:44 PM »
very true all all accounts and the sv guys and some other racers is where i got the idea of the cam ordeal they do it on gsxr 600-1000's to. Your story about the VW reminded me, I have read a article about a 90+ hp fzr400 that found the best set up for them was 2 exhaust cams now i have not tried this one but someday i might. And like you i have not the time or the money to run to the dyno every time i try something new. I put it to the track and check my times and try to keep as many variables the same but like i said some times its hard when you don't take good notes. (Gary lol) But on another note the rocker arms at-least in my parts book are the same part number. here is another note for you rocker arms big beefy mothers they are i learned something along time ago when i started off tuning single cylinder bikes with rocker arms if you take the casting marks off and polish them up you rev quicker believe it or not, I do it to anything with rockers now.
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
has been a wera expert #610 lol

Offline Herr Tod

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2007, 06:22:21 PM »
I'm going to put the exhaust cam back in tomorrow. I've done some riding (about 500 km's), had it in the rev limiter a lot of times but it really lacks power up there. I don't care much about anything below 10000 RPM, only when commuting. I could try to rejet the carbs to make it run right and do some more testing, if it wasn't for the rattling.

Offline tomacGTi

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2007, 10:43:37 AM »
Tod, that's the thing that I've found for this mod, since I spend most of my time between 8 and 12k+ it works well for me. It certainly isn't a drop-in mod because of the jetting changes but if we can standardize what we've done, it may make it easier.

It really improved the midrange so whatever little torque curve the bike has is more rideable. I'd really like to try a set of GSXR cams to compare this setup to but I really don't want to spend more money when I need to start saving for tires later this year. Sounds like to me that may be the better setup for you since you spend most of your days north on the tacho. Here's the other thing: do you have a V? Maybe that's the big difference?

Jay, of the rockers you sent me, it was obvious that there were two distinct ones. Now I don't know if the GSXR is different but the exhaust rocker is slightly "chunkier" than the intake rocker. They're also two different numbers in Bike Bandit.

Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2007, 12:07:29 PM »
Quote from: "tomacGTi"

Jay, of the rockers you sent me, it was obvious that there were two distinct ones. Now I don't know if the GSXR is different but the exhaust rocker is slightly "chunkier" than the intake rocker. They're also two different numbers in Bike Bandit.


well now thats interesting because i mostly go by my parts book for the gk73a i have #12840-32c00 for a both i may have to look at my motor a bit more closely now and see if i have swapped some parts.
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
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Offline tomacGTi

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2007, 12:41:17 PM »
I'll get pics for you Jay as I still have those rockers you sent me. They're distinctly different between the two.

I think I may be wrong on the PN thing as well but like I said, they're obviously different. Perhaps 93 versus other years?

Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2007, 03:17:09 PM »
OK well if the b4 has 2 part numbers then that may explain it as i have a ton of b4 and 73 motor parts but i also have some 71f stuff mixed in. So if they have two different rockers id use the lightest ones im sure i weighed mine after i polished them and they where all within a gram. And yes pics are worth a million words. cheers
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
has been a wera expert #610 lol

Offline Herr Tod

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2007, 08:50:20 PM »
I don't have a VV model. Mine is a '92, with a '94 engine with the '92 cams and ignition stuff, Yosh system with a Micron end can, K&N replacement filter and Factory Pro ti needles. GSXR cams are the same as my '92 B4 cams, I have both and some others as well.

I've got the stock exhaust cam back in. It's back to life :bandit: More power everywhere, airbox and exhaust sound is back. With the intake cam it sounded rather tame. Oh i love the sound of that rev limiter coming up fast in 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th gear. Creepy thing was, I broke 3 bolts holding the cam, I didn't over tighten them when installing. Strange...

I have my hopes put on the GSXR CDI I'm receiving soon from Japan, I need more revs before the limiter kicks in, especially in 2nd gear corners where I just can't go faster because of the limiter. If I take them in 3rd gear I'll be a bit slower. I'm running a 14-43 final transmission (RGV 250 rear wheel) which I quite like, gives more speed in lower gears and even in 6th gear it has a higher top speed.

What's to gain by slotting the cam sprockets and advancing the ignition a bit?

Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2007, 11:41:21 PM »
Quote from: "Herr Tod"


What's to gain by slotting the cam sprockets and advancing the ignition a bit?

equal lobe centers , messing with where the power comes on falls off adjusting the powerband as for the slotting of the pic up more hp
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
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Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2007, 11:42:33 PM »
so what harness you running the 2 wire or 3 wire cdi one
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
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Offline gsxr400 racer

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Intake cam in exhaust pt 2
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2007, 08:51:03 AM »
How about a UPDATE brother all running good still ? about how many miles?
cheers
jay
1988 gsxr 400 sp (sprint bike)
*  SELLER OF THE 442CC BIG BORE PISTON KIT FOR THE BANDIT 400,GSXR400, GK73 and 76.* And carb kits(orings)too. Email me from here.
has been a wera expert #610 lol