Author Topic: Introduce your Bandit  (Read 170339 times)

Offline greg737

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #195 on: October 18, 2013, 07:49:34 PM »
Thanks for the link, I'll read that with high interest!!!
Any idea of the parts cost for the whole conversion (with used parts like injectors)? That would be interesting to know.
Also, what fuel consumption are you able to achieve? I usually do 5.2L/100km which is equivalent to 45.2MPG for town, suburbs and a 2.3km twisty moutain road which is used for one of the rally of the french montain rally championship, that I take every day to go to work ;-) Best I could achieve was around 4.7L/100km so 50MPG (twisty roads only, no town).
Thanks.

Those are the two most common questions I've been asked about my fuel injection conversion project (the Kawasaki EX250).  Tubular has already gone a long way toward answering your fuel efficiency question, at least with regard to raw numbers.  The "why" behind any fuel efficiency comparison you might make of two otherwise identical GSF400s, with the already stated observation that there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in fuel economy between a fuel injected GSF400 and a Carb GSF400, is only worth exploring if you're a real engine technology enthusiast (a gearhead).  As Tubular pointed out, a fuel injection conversion is primarily a hobby interest for somebody who really enjoys tinkering and problem solving, with the added bonus of getting to actually ride your creation around afterwards.

But if you're still interested (if you're still reading at this point) I'll go a bit further... (and this is a bit basic, but) an internal combustion engine is, before all else, an air-pump.  It's an air-pump of a particular size, in this case 400cc of total volume.  That's not going to change when you install a fuel injection system and neither is the engine's operating envelope (the idle to redline numbers).  When you begin your reasoning from that point of information you'll quickly see that if the only thing you're changing on an engine is the fuel delivery method there's not a lot of effect available to you (in other words, it's not like adding turbocharging or supercharging which changes the engine's (the pump's) volumetric efficiency).

So when you decide to change a motorcycle from carbs to fuel injection you have to realize that any improvement you might achieve in its performance, in things like fuel efficiency and cold startup and throttle response, will only be marginal gains, but they're often noticeable enough to be worth the effort.

You're fixing the weak spots that invariably exist in any carb's operational envelope: you'll be improving fuel atomization for better combustion (my system runs at 50psi), you'll be improving/smoothing intake tract airflow with a simplified "throttle body" setup, you'll be implementing a much more agile fueling table that eliminates the air/fuel ratio inefficiencies that are inherent in the mechanical switching/overlap of the carb's various fuel input curves (i.e. flat spots in acceleration) and you'll have the ability to tune the fuel/air ratio precisely by taking into account things like Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure, Throttle Position, Throttle Position Rate-of-Change, RPM, Air Temperature, Coolant Temperature, Barometric Pressure and ignition timing.

When you've got all of these things working perfectly the ride is wonderful; the engine response is instant and razor sharp.  But in a "blind" side by side test ride comparison you might not be able to guess whether you're riding a really well-tuned carb bike or a fuel injected bike.

As far as the total cost is concerned, I really couldn't tell you with any accuracy.  I gather parts a bit at a time: some I've bought new, some I've simply been given by friends, some I've gotten out of junk yards.  Because this endeavor is just a hobby for me I don't concern myself with an exhaustive accounting of the costs.  I'm sure most people are the same way with their chosen hobbys.

Anyway, it keeps me occupied and happy when I've got spare time and want to concentrate on something technical that I know I can eventually get perfect, unlike the rest of life.  

Offline bdouvill

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #196 on: October 19, 2013, 07:11:06 AM »
Many thanks to both of you for your answer. If we go on like this, we should probably open a dedicated topic!
I am enthousiast to any kind of upgrade I can bring to a car or a motorcycle that will teach me something. I read the GSF400 EFI conversion project topic (I'll read it again for sure many times) and I also went into the 15 minutes video on Youtube about the Kawi 250 presentation: both are freakin' amazing!!!

Here is what I figured:
- This requires basically many parts to buy; even used one like the injectors that can come from another bike or the fuel pump and regulator. The whole cost exceed the initial cost of the bike (I paid only 800 euros 3 years ago).
- I do not expect any drastic change in the riding compared to a well tuned carb version nor any dramatic reduction of the fuel efficiency
- Where I live, the temperature almost never goes under 8°C (around 46°F) so I am not too much concerned about cold starts
- This is not something that I plan in the short-term: I just sold my car to save money and my B4 is my daily driver and this will not change soon
- In the future, when I have the opportunity to get a new motorcycle (most probably a SV650S), I do everything possible to keep my B4 and restore it (like sanding/painting the frame like new and everything). Maybe I'll think about this conversion again at that time and this let me time to google until then and understand deeper all the details about it.

I do know how you can feel when you achieve something you did not know how to figure out in the 1st place. When I got the bike, I did not know so much, so I figured out one thing at a time, how to fix things and I can't deal  with not understanding something. I was really happy when I was able to build a carb sync device to sync my B4!!! The EFI conversion sounds like many many steps further but I will dig into that way. Thanks again.
Benoit.
Bandit 400 1992, 1st bike.

Offline erict716

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #197 on: October 22, 2013, 02:00:31 PM »
bdouvill, I love the color of your bike.  Did you buy it that way or get it painted.  I ask that because I was looking at a similar paint job and didnt know where to find the original decals that I could have someone make for me.

Offline bdouvill

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #198 on: October 23, 2013, 03:38:55 AM »
bdouvill, I love the color of your bike.  Did you buy it that way or get it painted.  I ask that because I was looking at a similar paint job and didnt know where to find the original decals that I could have someone make for me.
Look at page #12 of this post, you'll see how the bike was when I bought it ;-) I painted it myself with a paint aerosol spray and I ordered the stickers from a french company specialized in stickers (you can order your own ones). The one from the tank is not the original, more like the one you can find on Suzuki SV and SVS 1st gen (it's grey and the inside of the letters is open so you can see the tank color). The one at the back is just like the default Bandit stickers (the same that was found on 600s and 1200s) but with a small 400 at the bottom.

For the original tank sticker, not sure you can buy it from Suzuki and it would probably ruin you. The closest I found on the web is here:
http://www.bike-decals.com/default.tpl?action=brief&cart=12488043302962365&--eqskudatarq=1249
or of course there:
http://www.oemmotorparts.com/oem5.asp?M=Suzuki&T=GSF400&Y=(E2)%201992&L=SU4_-3415&O=FUEL%20TANK&F=SU4_-2026467&L2=SU4_-2026467
Not sure it is 100% original and it's already 14 euros each. I got mine for 3.5 each. It was enough at the time I did this.
Benoit.
Bandit 400 1992, 1st bike.

Offline OldSchlPunk

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #199 on: October 25, 2013, 12:23:21 AM »
I recently found this '92 400. It's box stock, runs like a champ. Only 7576 mi. when I picked it up. Missing 1 bar end, very few nicks in the frame and tank, couple of scratches on the exhaust.

Offline bdouvill

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #200 on: October 25, 2013, 04:40:15 AM »
I wish I found one in this condition one day to put in my garage!!!
Benoit.
Bandit 400 1992, 1st bike.

Offline greg737

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #201 on: October 25, 2013, 12:26:29 PM »
Wow!  All I can do is sit here and drool.  

With that kind of milage the bike qualifies as a "time capsule" barn find.

Nice purchase!  What are your plans for this museum-quality piece of motorcycling history?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 12:34:37 PM by greg737 »

Offline wario

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #202 on: October 25, 2013, 12:41:10 PM »
Wow!  All I can do is sit here and drool.  

With that kind of milage the bike qualifies as a "time capsule" barn find.

Nice purchase!  What are your plans for this museum-quality piece of motorcycling history?

My 93 only has 11000...  :trustme:

Offline OldSchlPunk

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #203 on: October 27, 2013, 07:17:49 PM »
Wow!  All I can do is sit here and drool.  

With that kind of milage the bike qualifies as a "time capsule" barn find.

Nice purchase!  What are your plans for this museum-quality piece of motorcycling history?

I need to replace the fork seals, am seriously considering braided lines for the brakes with HH pads, progressive springs in the forks with heavier oil and maybe a GSXR600/750 shock. Otherwise just plan on riding it, put 60 miles on this afternoon. Oh, and grinning during/after each ride.

Next tires are going to be 120/70 and 160/60 sportbike rubber.

Offline greg737

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #204 on: October 27, 2013, 08:14:37 PM »
Quote
progressive springs in the forks with heavier oil

Doing those two things to an old damper rod technology fork might make them feel just a bit better, but if you want a really impressive change in the fork's performance and feel you should look into what Race Tech has to offer.

If you're handy with tools and enjoy tinkering with machinery I'd go with the Race Tech solution for the GSF400 forks.  They can get you set up with better springs (correct for the weight of you + the bike), 15 weight oil, and a Race Tech modification called "Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators".  The emulators are the magical item in this package, when you put them into an old damper rod fork they give the fork the ability to react to the road like a modern, high-dollar sport bike cartridge fork.  

I did their modification on my Kawasaki EX250 fork and it was a huge improvement and I plan to do the same to my new (to me) 1993 Bandit 400 when I reach that point in my rebuild.

http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/Suzuki/GSF400%20Bandit/1991-92

Poke around on their site, they've got a lot of good information on it (there's even a bit in there on why progressive springs aren't a good fork tuning solution).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 09:52:54 PM by greg737 »

Offline greg737

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #205 on: October 28, 2013, 09:33:09 AM »
Quote
Next tires are going to be 120/70 and 160/60 sportbike rubber.

Well of course... it absolutely goes without saying that bigger is better.


Offline OldSchlPunk

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #206 on: October 28, 2013, 11:24:47 PM »
Quote
progressive springs in the forks with heavier oil

Doing those two things to an old damper rod technology fork might make them feel just a bit better, but if you want a really impressive change in the fork's performance and feel you should look into what Race Tech has to offer.

If you're handy with tools and enjoy tinkering with machinery I'd go with the Race Tech solution for the GSF400 forks.  They can get you set up with better springs (correct for the weight of you + the bike), 15 weight oil, and a Race Tech modification called "Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators".  The emulators are the magical item in this package, when you put them into an old damper rod fork they give the fork the ability to react to the road like a modern, high-dollar sport bike cartridge fork.  

I did their modification on my Kawasaki EX250 fork and it was a huge improvement and I plan to do the same to my new (to me) 1993 Bandit 400 when I reach that point in my rebuild.

http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/Suzuki/GSF400%20Bandit/1991-92

Poke around on their site, they've got a lot of good information on it (there's even a bit in there on why progressive springs aren't a good fork tuning solution).

I've actually looked at the emulator kits and am seriously considering it. Thanks for the tip.

Offline OldSchlPunk

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #207 on: October 28, 2013, 11:27:53 PM »
Quote
Next tires are going to be 120/70 and 160/60 sportbike rubber.

Well of course... it absolutely goes without saying that bigger is better.



But ridiculous is just ridiculous...

Another thing I'm considering is changing the thermostat to a slightly higher temp one. My friend says it made a big difference with his.

Offline B4ndit

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #208 on: October 29, 2013, 11:03:27 AM »
Welcome aboard...

Offline greg737

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Re: Introduce your Bandit
« Reply #209 on: October 29, 2013, 12:13:57 PM »
Quote
Another thing I'm considering is changing the thermostat to a slightly higher temp one. My friend says it made a big difference with his.

You've made me curious with that statement.  

Where did your friend get the slightly higher temp thermostat?  Is it from another Suzuki motorcycle?

It sounds as if you're saying the Bandit 400's cooling system is known to have some odd characteristics or behaviors that bother people.  The same is true for my Kawasaki EX250.  The solution modification that somebody came up with for the EX250's cooling system did include a slightly higher temp thermostat, as you've mentioned, but that wasn't the most important part of the fix.

The really valuable and fundamental improvement to the EX250's cooling system was a small bypass line that continuously ports a small amount of the overall coolant flow volume from the thermostat housing (connecting into the system just prior to the thermostat itself) directly back into the water pump inflow line (the line that comes off the bottom of the radiator).

This constant flow of coolant makes my EX250's cooling system behave so much better.  It helps to even out and reduce the thermal gradient that used to occur across the mass of metal that is the cylinder and cylinder head combination during the engine's operation and it also allows the entire engine to warm up to normal operating temperatures much more rapidly.  Both of these things reduce engine wear and make it perform better.

The EX250 modification is a by-product of a modification that was designed for other Kawasaki motorcycles; the KLR650, KLX250 and the Versys.  Here's a link to the inventor's website:

http://shop.watt-man.com/Thermo-Bobs_c4.htm

There's a good bit of information on this site and it sounds like it applies to the Bandit 400 just as much as it applied to my EX250.

And in case you're not convinced that continuously bypassing a small amount of the coolant flow back to the water pump is a good idea, take a look at what Suzuki did with the SV650... In this micro-fiche diagram of the 1999 SV650 cooling system you can see they included the exact bypass that I'm describing (part number 24, labeled "Hose, connector to water pump" in the listings)

http://www.suzukipartshouse.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d41183f8700230d8b51087/radiator-hose



Here's my install video of the Thermobob on my Kawasaki EX250

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LD0IpbRWcw
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 01:38:40 PM by greg737 »