Not Starting... RR? [Sorted!]

[Wudy]

Hey all!
Here's my first post but I've done soo much reading through here that I feel like a regular already!

I shall have a lot more questions later on I'm sure, but all I want to know at the moment is;
If the bike has a fully charged (and new) battery, but a faulty RR (reg/rect) unit, is it possible for the bike to still start?

I'm thinking it will but I'm hoping that the answers "no" so I can buy a new one and get riding again. If the answer's yes then I'll go ahead and spend a good while typing up what I've tried thus far (problem being no spark anywhere) to find a solution to my woes (5 months now   )

Thanks in advance  

[txbanditrydr]

Hey, Wudy... just wanted to say  to the site.  I'm sure our 250/400 guru's will be along shortly.   

[Wudy]

Cheers

[tomacGTi]

Will the bike start with a good battery and a bum RR? Yes

Is it a good idea to ride it this way? No, because it will probably cook the battery and the voltage spikes can cook the Ignitor unit.

No spark: could be ignition pickup coil (LH case cover), bad signals to coils, bad coils, bad ignitor. Use the manual and a multimeter to eliminate each one.

-Randy

[Wudy]

Thanks for the reply Randy.
Ok, so the answer is "yes" so i'll go through what I've done...

First of all, the story of how it died... (a bit long, but at least all the info's there)
I think it started quite randomly one morning before leaving for work. I just went to start it as normal but it WOULD NOT start at all. Eventually I ran out of battery power so had a go at bumping it, still nothing (and to make me feel even happier, she fell off the side stand to put some scratches on the engine case and bar-end, what a great day!).
So I call the RAC to see what they can do, he connects his battery booster and she fires up straight away: Note: his battery booster was for cars, this must've had a lot more power than even a healthy battery as it turned the engine over faster than it used to normally. When he disconnected the booster the bike faded and died out. After re-connecting and starting again a couple of times she would manage to keep going by herself. So I left her idling and got suited up again and went for a ride, she was fine but could only just about start again afterwards IIRC (I may be wrong, and she might not have started).

There is a chance this started after using my dad's bike charger (optimate 3 IIRC), after trying to charge the battery (as I do occasionally) my battery wouldn't hold the charge for any amount of time. I can't remember if this happened before or after the situation described above.
At this point I should've stopped riding it, I know. But as she's my daily I carried on using it; bought a new charger and charged her up overnight (while waiting for the new battery).
She would start in the morning and be fine riding to work (and enough charge to start fine straight after turning off). But while she sat through the day the battery would discharge and it would only be able to manage about 5 turns of the engine before not having enough to move the engine over. So sometimes it would start other times it would need to be bumped; on a couple of occasions it was very hard to bump start and I almost gave up one time, one last try and it started.

After about a week or so, I was coming out of work early (on a nice warm/hot day, looking forward to a nice ride home), so she started ok. Came out of the underground car park, then waited at some lights. As I pulled away, changed up into second to continue accelerating and at about mid revs the bike just died as if the kill switch has been flicked (it hadn't), lights and ignition were still on though. Nothing would get her going again though.

Called the RAC, but they didn't really know what to do. Confirmed there wasn't a spark though, and towed me home. Note, from here on, the rev counter hasn't moved IIRC. Which is what makes me think CDI.

She hasn't run again since then, that was back in March.

What I've done:
I've checked everything using my service manual. Though I couldn't get a reading on one of the coils, although I was sure this wasn't the culprit (no sparks at all) I bought a second hand pair, tested and used one of them.
Next thing I tried was a new signal generator (shouldn't have bothered as it was more expensive than expected). Still no joy.
After more swearing etc I came to the conclusion that it was the CDI. Bought a new (second hand one, numbers on the front are the same except the small 4 letter/digit code. Mines a '93 Jap import and this is from a '92 of unknown country) and still nothing. Thought I'd check the RR unit using the info in my service manual and my results seemed to show it was faulty but wasn't sure, hence the question above.
By the way, also has a new battery now that's kept trickle charged most of the time, occasionally turn it off to give the battery a break.

I'm sorry if I made something sound confusing there, will clarify anything for you. Just wanted to get everything I've done written down (first time I've gone through it all).

Hopefully someone can get my bike going again!

Thanks again.

[tomacGTi]

Here's something: make sure that none of the switches that will kill the engine are bad ie:

-handlebar
-clutch
-kickstand

And go from there. It sounds like you've covered your bases well, I'd imagine it's something simple.

[Wudy]

Thanks, well after 5 months I've done everything I can think of, would've thought I'd fixed it by now 

I'd like to think it was one of those, but with the side-stand and kill switches it stops the engine turning over all together. So that rules them out?
And as far as I'm aware there isn't a clutch switch/sensor, can someone confirm?

My next thing to check is the wiring (for any damaged wires), although I don't hold much hope for that given the way that it died. I'm assuming the ones to check would be everything leading to and from the CDI really?

More ideas please (still hoping it's something simple!)
And thank you!

[Wudy]

Quoting myself:

So I call the RAC to see what they can do, he connects his battery booster and she fires up straight away: Note: his battery booster was for cars, this must've had a lot more power than even a healthy battery as it turned the engine over faster than it used to normally.

Would it damage the bike if I connected it to a car battery to jump start it? See if I can do the same as the RAC man did with his more powerful battery.

Cheers.

[tomacGTi]

As long as the car is not running.

[Wudy]

Cheers, I'll give that a go. Failing that, could also ask if the RAC man can come again lol.
Will post the results and go from there

[Wudy]

Ok, I haven't tried jump starting it yet as my car is up the road and my dad won't let me use his.
So tonight I figured I'd to some more testing (including re-testing things, but this time noting the results)
Here are my findings so far:

Ignition coils (ohms)
Primary coil: left;3.5 right;3.5
Secondary coil: left;11-19k  right;9-19k (14-15k mostly)  (spare; 12-19k, using same caps as left). I couldn't get a constant reading on these, while moving the probe around it would flash up a reading now and then.
Coil signal wires (white and black/yellow) are connected between coil and CDI plug (small ~.4ohm resistance)
Orange/white wire connected between left and right coils (.3ohm)

Signal generator; 98.5 ohms (flickers a voltage when (attempting) starting)
Black/blue wire is connected to CDI plug (small .4ohm resistance)
Brown wire is connected to CDI plug (snall .5ohm resistance)

I also followed the info by 'todius' given here and it seems my RR unit is ok.

I'm not sure if my readings are just incorrect, but it seems a bit of a coincidence that all three coils (two on the bike and one spare one) have the wrong readings on the secondary coils. They're all between 10-19k ohms when they should be 30-50k according to my service manual.

Still not getting 12v to the coils;
There should be 12v going to the primary coils with the ignition on right?

P.S. If anyone sees this from around the Bristol area, I'd really appreciate borrowing your coils! lol

Cheers guys.

[Chris H]

Hi Wudy,
This is a long shot but worth a look.
You got a VV B4 and theyve got a big relay that aint on any other B4's its under one of the side panels, dont remember which as i put mine under the rear seat. But it gets loads of weather and the spade terminals can corrode where they come out of the box and the bike will give your symptoms or the box could be bad. Its the one thats square and about 2"x2" in size being much bigger than the flasher relay or stand relay. I will test mine and post you some info so you can compare.
Chris.

[Wudy]

Hey, thanks for the post Chris.

That would be great. I'll go have a poke around and see what I can find.
Will take some photos and/or readings on whatever I find

Cheers

[Wudy]

I don't understand....

That relay seems to have power coming into it from the Regulator/Rectifier which then makes a circuit to some lump of metal on the top of the engine head (has NGK punched into it so I'm assuming it has a link to the VVC, changing the ignition timing as the valve timing changes?).
If i remembered that right anyway. Will take some more photos tomorrow.

I'll get that new relay anyway, but I'm assuming it was the one pictured below?



Cheers.

[asskickinpeanuts]

At the risk of stating the obvious, remember the basics.  Sectionalize, localize, isolate...needs air, fuel, compression, spark.
Sounds like not getting spark.  So...
Battery good?
Alternator good?
R/R good?
Coils good?
Plugs good?
Fuses good?
My Bandit 1200 does have a clutch switch.  Can't start without the clutch pulled IN.
Also, cannot put the sidestand DOWN while in any gear but neutral.  (For triggering the pesky magnetic vehicle sensors).
And, FWIW, my 1981 Honda Hawk could be jump started with NO battery, 1986 FJ1200 needed a charged battery or it would NOT start (the alternator needed battery current for the magnetic field of the alternator to generate the spark for ignition, at least to start it!)