Author Topic: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.  (Read 34826 times)

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2012, 02:20:13 PM »
It might be a good idea because who know where they are or even if they are all the same. Mine from the factory were all over the place. I set them all to my current 4 turns out and the bike ran alot more smoothly. I'm not sure what the standard turns out are but on Fast Larry's site it says 2 to 3 turns out stock so maybe 2.5 would be a good place to start then adjust up or down as necessary. For my Generation bike it's 3 turns out from lightly seated stock. Let me see if I can get a more solid answer for you. If you use a discombobulated flat head bit you can turn the mixture screws without pulling the carbs and a dental mirror to check position.



EDIT: Here is the shop manual for you bike from the downloads section:

http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item47


K from the Clymer manual from the above link the standard turns out is 1 3/4 turns out form lightly seated so that would be a good start. Maybe 2 turns would be more like it as these bikes are jetted lean from the factory but the Gen 1 bike is not as bad as the Gen 2 bikes. Since the bike has low milage who knows when the carbs were actually synced so resetting the mixture screws and syncing the carbs is probably a good idea.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 02:30:37 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2012, 03:02:52 PM »
Thanks for all the info. I tried to download the manual and I keep getting a corruption error. Do you know where else I can download the manual.

Offline mwheat308

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2012, 07:18:29 PM »
I have the manual on my system, I will be glad to send it to you.
Let me know.

Mike
Gun CONTROL is hitting the target the FIRST time!

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2012, 09:42:15 PM »
Well a hour and half and few blistered knuckles later I got the carbs pretty well synced. They are all within a line or two of one another with gauge i'm using. I put the pilot screws out about 2-1/2 turns, they were all over the place from 2 - 3 1/2 turns. It does seem to be running smoother but I still have some hesitation at right about 3500 then it powers right up to redline. I assume when I eventually rejet that this will be fixed, correct? Still haven't rode it yet but the sounds its making do sound promising. Its supposed to be bright and sunny here tomorrow so we will see how it goes then.

Offline pmackie

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2012, 12:44:36 AM »
Quote
Do y'all think that changing brands of oil would make the clutch slip? Previous owner only ever used yamalube, I put in valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil.

No, I would NOT be concerned that the oil change is part of your problem. I think you are on the right track with your hydraulic issues, especially the slave cylinder end. I would also take apart the release ramp mechanism and clean and relube it.
Paul
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Leo Vince Ex & Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
32 years in the Fuel/lubes industry(Retired)

Offline LowRyter

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2012, 01:47:19 AM »
yes, the rejet smoothed out flat spot 4k rpm.
John L

1998 Red Suzuki GSF-1200S
1998 Red & Cream Moto Guzzi V11 EV
2001 Greenie Moto Guzzi V11 Sport

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2012, 03:25:31 AM »
You can temporarily make it less noticeable with another 1/4 to half turn out, but down low may be a bit rich. If you just lightly blip the throttle and the revs when coming back down to idle go below idle then recover you're too rich on the pilots. If you blip the throttle and the idle hangs up higher than idle and floats back down you are too lean. Make sure your %100 warmed up before adjusting, at least a 20 min ride in winter.

If you would like you can get some shims at radio shack and put one on the needle this will lift it making it richer in that dead spot probably eliminating it. I'm assuming you have an American bike with non-adjustable needles.

Radio shack shims part #64-3022A

I would only put one shim under c-clip of the needle or the plastic "doughnut" to raise it a bit, If it's that horrid stock exhaust and mid-pipe. I'm not sure where you are but it is winter and colder temps require richer jetting. These bikes are super lean out of the factory to get by emissions. However on the bright side they are almost stupidly easy to tune. If you like take one of the outside carb float bowls off and read off the mainjet and pilot jet size for us so we know if it's stock or not. Stock exhaust on there?

When I first got my bike and before I piped and rejetted it I set all the screws(mine were all over the place too, out of the factory) to the stock 3 turns out on my Gen2 and it was smoother, but even with the stock exhaust it was kind of weak. Turning the screws out a 1/4 turn extra and adding 1 radio shack shim given to me by another forum member, really helped especially when cold, it improved warm up as well as cruise smoothness and throttle response. Try another 1/4 turn and see if it gets any smoother. 3500 is just right at the transition period from the pilots to more of the needle and mains. So either shimming which will give that lean area more fuel, or another 1/4 turn or so will do the same and smooth the cruise out. Your choice. Personally I would do both, add 1 shim and another 1/4 turn as these bikes are super lean, it may not totally fix it(really need a rejet and aftermarket mid-pipe and slip on) but it will drive %100 better.

If you're going to get an aftermarket slip on, make sure it comes with a mid-pipe as well. The stock mid-pipe is super restricted and just getting a slip on is not going to do it. It's literally a waste of jets unless the mid-pipe which is at least a good %60-70% of the restriction is replaced. They are cheap I got my Muzzy slip on and mid-pipe on Ebay for $150 shipped. It came with a centre stand stop and everything. But if you buy one that doesn't have a centre stand stop you can fabricate one out of heavy sheet metal for a few bucks.

Here is a place to get a slip on and mid-pipe cheap with free shipping in the States, however they do not offer a centre stand stop so you will have to buy a few dollars worth of sheet metal and fabricate a centre stand stop. I can describe mine which fits over the centre stand existing bolt, it's doesn't need to be super strong it's basically a piece of metal the centre stand can rest on. Or you can pay like $30 from Holeshot and get a fancy one. Bottom line if it doesn't have a mid-pipe DONT BOTHER WITH IT, get something else. People here have been stuck with super expensive end-cans that do almost nothing because they didn't check to see if the setup came with a mid-pipe. One guy we were helping is going to buy a whole Dan Moto system just to steal the mid-pipe which is a pricey fix, Considering his two brothers slip on is $300 and does almost nothing without a mid-pipe.

Cheap slip ons with mid-pipe systems:

http://www.dan-moto.com/DM_US/gsf-bandit-600-1200-n-s-wholesale-18_20_58.html

Just a word about the Dan moto exhausts they will sound awsome but may be a little loud for you, I've seen videos and the quietest one is the triangular because you can stuff more packing material in there. So if you want a stealthy but healthy sound go for that. If you want a full bore jihad-mobile go for the carbon fibre or the GP or whatever. Or go with a pricier setup but I'm just giving you the cheapest option. Also you can buy a jet kit for $150 or if you know what your doing we can give you the jet sizes and you can go and pay $10 for jets and use the Radio Shack shims, it's up to you. It invovles modding the airbox lid for better airflow and adjusting the needles/mixture screws it's pretty easy. I recommend you try the $10 option and let us help you tune it for free. You sound very competant and these bikes are so easy to tune is almost silly.

So for $130 For a dan moto special and $10 in jets, you get 10-15 horsepower extra + non wonky stock lean jetting. It's the best $150 you'll spend.

 But maybe wait until all the little bugs are worked out first, you're making alot of good progress, best not to change too many things at once until all is good. Although on the other hand replacing the jets will guarantee that they aren't gummed up. Maybe get all the materials first, ie exhaust, jets, Radio shack shims etc. and fix the clutch cylinder. Once it has all that extra power you may want to buy one Barnett clutch spring and pop it in there to beef up the clutch.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:22:49 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2012, 09:45:53 AM »
Quote
Do y'all think that changing brands of oil would make the clutch slip? Previous owner only ever used yamalube, I put in valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil.

No, I would NOT be concerned that the oil change is part of your problem. I think you are on the right track with your hydraulic issues, especially the slave cylinder end. I would also take apart the release ramp mechanism and clean and relube it.

Where's the release ramp mechanism?

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2012, 09:54:57 AM »
So for $130 For a dan moto special and $10 in jets, you get 10-15 horsepower extra + non wonky stock lean jetting. It's the best $150 you'll spend.

 But maybe wait until all the little bugs are worked out first, you're making alot of good progress, best not to change too many things at once until all is good. Although on the other hand replacing the jets will guarantee that they aren't gummed up. Maybe get all the materials first, ie exhaust, jets, Radio shack shims etc. and fix the clutch cylinder. Once it has all that extra power you may want to buy one Barnett clutch spring and pop it in there to beef up the clutch.

Yeah I am gonna try and get all the bugs worked out first, I haven't even really rode it yet more than 15 miles at a time anyway.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2012, 12:01:38 PM »
OK good news, bad news.

Good news is that I don't think the clutch is slipping anymore. I tried everything I could to make it slip, and It didn't. I did the exact same things that I was doing before when it was slipping and no slip. It is a few degrees colder here than when I rode it last but I don't think that would make a difference that much. Also the lever feels much better. I had it up to about 105mph in 4th high rpms and it was rock solid as far as the clutch is concerned.

Bad news is that its still not running very well at idle to about 3500. And there's a miss on number 3, when I got the bike there was a miss on number 2 but that seems fine now. Its like it just moved cylinders. I don't know if my syncing screwed things up, I'm gonna try it again in a little while. The throttle is pretty slow to come back down now, when I rev the bike it takes it a while to settle back down to idle. These carbs are gonna drive me crazy.

I have changed the spark plugs if that helps rule some stuff out.

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »
Awsome job on the clutch!!!

Ok this may help you out a bit as I had a similar problem when my pilots were too lean as it's affecting idle to 3500 so thats all pilots.

Wait until the bike is totally cold(dead cold) and start it up normally run for maybe 10 sec on the choke then cut the choke completely. Use the throttle to keep the revs up around the 2000rpm mark or so and put your hands on the intake boots closest to the engine block, make sure you get the ones that you think are trouble carbs(3 in your case) Do you hear sort of a "sneeze" or backfire and feel the intake boots jump with the sneezes or misfires? Does a specific cylinder backfire more than the others? This sneeze is due to the pilots being lean, even when perfectly tuned there will be a little bit if cold but if it's "sneezing" badly I would turn the mixture screws out half a turn to 3 turns out in your case.

Another good way to test is drive around the bike normally until fully warmed up. Then just drive around in the problem area. Go from around idle accelerating very lightly up until 3500 then back down and back up again. After a few passes hit the kill switch at the top of the problem area and coast to a stop. What do the plugs look like? Are they overly white? Is one cylinder leaner than the others?

To be honest it sounds like you just need a half turn out on the mixture screws. With your symptoms with it hanging up at idle its either lean pilot screw settings, or you have a vacuum leak. Double check the intake boots and the airbox boots and make sure the clamps are tight. If you want to double check go buy some starter fluid and at idle spray around the intake boots. If the idle increases you have a vacuum leak in the boots. Is the airfilter stock or a K&N? If it's a K&N I guarantee you it will be lean as hell with stock jets in there.
If it's a K&N you might want to buy a stock filter for now, you'll get more power. Or just go get an aftermarket can and jet it as soon as you can. Turning the mixture screws out even with a K&N will at least help it.

The carb sync only affects the throttle butterfly valves not the mixtures, I'm sure you did a good job I wouldn't bother there. Try turning the mixture screws out, hell turn them to 3 and half turns. Whatever the bike needs is where it should be. Hell I'm at 4 with no problems. However if you go past 4.5 turns it's best if you go one size up pilot jet. However I doubt you'll go much past 3 turns as long as there is a stock filter and no air leaks. If there is a K&N filter in there you will need at least another half turn over that and a shim to make it sort of normal. Sometimes people read some crap advertisment out there or not understand that you can't just increase airflow and have instant power, you need to jet it correctly so the fuel/air mixture is correct. More air, more fuel, etc. If you listened to K&N's bullshit they would have you believe you just pop it on there for an instant 5 hp. Its crap! You will actually LOSE power because the already lean factory mixture will just get leaner. You must jet it up for the increased airflow. Check that filter, if it's the K&N panel filter it should be a reddish colour from the K&N oil they use and will have a company logo on it somewhere. Stock should be whitish with not an official marking or whatever, maybe just the suzuki "S". If you can take the document tray off you should be able to look inside the air intake and see if the filter is red or white. If it's white your good, if it's red take out the filter and have a look.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 02:35:57 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2012, 02:21:26 PM »
I will try your suggestions, and report back.

EDIT: The bike is completely stock, no K&N or anything. The stock filter is a lil dirty but not that bad.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 02:23:44 PM by mpatrick »

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2012, 02:36:54 PM »
Cool then your in business. Turn the mixture screws out another half a turn to 3 and try it out. When you blip it and the idle goes BELOW on it's way back then recovers you've gone too far. Don't sweat it your very very close. Just make sure that you ride around a good 20 minutes to test.

Double check the boots for tightness and if you like get some starter fluid to spray around the boots at idle. In fact turn the mixtures to 3 and go and drive to get the fluid is a perfect test to see if the extra boost on the pilots are helping you out. Also note if it gets better when hot than cold. If it's crap but gets slightly better when hot then you are definately lean on the pilot screws.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 02:40:50 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline mpatrick

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 03:42:12 PM »
HOLY SHIT!

I turned out the mixtures screws to about 3 1/4, went for a ride. I just did my normal commute to work to see how it felt compared to earlier in the week. It's 100% better, now I know why so many people like this bike. I didn't have to feather the throttle at lights like usual the idle is nice and smooth. When I got on it the power was there and no clutch slip, the bike is just so much nicer to ride now. I want to thank everyone for the help especially rider123. I am sure I'll still be asking questions in the future but for now I think we can call this case closed.

hmm...now I have to figure out how to get that front faring off....

Offline rider123

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Re: 2000 1200S Clutch problems, carb problems, etc.
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 09:21:47 PM »
No problem. Trust me these bikes are addictive. I bought mine new 6 years ago and I think I'll keep the thing until it totally dies, even if I get different bikes. To get extra power is dirt cheap and addictive. The only thing that is a drawback is once it's piped and jetted you may need to buy more underwear!!! Here's a nice wish list in order of cheapness to more expensive:

Stock HP: 98-102 HP


Best Bang for your buck/easiest to live with:
Semi-decent slip on with mid-pipe: $130
Stage 1 jetting to go with it: $10 or $20 depending how many sets of jets you want to experiment with.
Radio shack or hobby store shims: $5
K&N filter to go with stage 1 jetting: $40
Horsepower increase: 15HP minimum 18MAX<--Gen 1 Bandits seem to have slightly more than GEN2 with a stage 1. Probably due to the RF900 Carbs.
Total cost around $200
Ease of install: Stupidly easy.
Characteristics: Retains most of the bottom end if not all, with a huge mid-range punch and a very frisky top end, most drivable and easy to live with for normal around town driving. Best fuel economy out of the basic mods. Can be installed even if piss drunk it's so easy.
Depends(R) underwear change rating: 3 out of 7 days of the week. It will wheelie with ease especially in the mid-range. Don't eat any Tacos 12 hours before riding or you'll have a burning ring of fire when you scare yourself shitless and no, I'm not talking about the piston rings.

Same setup with Stage 2 Jetting:
Semi-decent slip on with mid-pipe: $130
Stage 2 jetting to go with it: $20 to $30 as you will probably buy a few more sets of mainjets and probably need new pilots
Horsepower increase: 18-22 HP<--give you a few more ponies over stage 1
K&N pod filters: $150
Total Cost: $250-$300 bucks
Ease of install: Don't get drunk before installing. Sometimes stage 2 is a little trickier to get right, but it gets rid of the stock airbox. May be wonky in the rain as the pods will be exposed unlike the GEN 2 Bandits which cover them up with side covers. The actual install is easy but tuning may require more patience. Basic mod for any engine or full exhaust system upgrades.
Characteristics: slightly noticeable decrease in the bottom end but still very decent but Mid-range gets even more crazy and the top end is starting to get frightening. Stay away from Indian food.
Depends(R) underwear change rating: 4 out of 7 Days of the week. If you weren't scared before now, you will start to be.

Options recommend after Stage 2:

Stepped header to go with mid-pipe:
Cost: $820
HP increase: 3-5 HP extra over stage 2
Characteristics: Will slightly decrease the bottom end more but add a little more punch to the mid-range and move it up slightly up the RPM scale. Most of the gains are up top.
Depends(R)underwear change rating: 5 out of 7 days of the week.

GSXR CAMS:
Cost: $400 average, sometimes you can find them on Ebay or get new for $500
Intake cam: 5-7 HP retains most of the bottom end and mid-range
Exhaust Cam: another 5-7 Horsepower will move HP higher up the RPM scale.
Ease of install: You'll have to take the engine apart so get a sober friend to help you.
Characteristics: Bottom end is still there but noticeably weaker with both of the Cams in there. Mid-range is moved up the scale and silly, top end is dangerous to all but the most questionably sane person.
Total HP with all the mods in there: Maybe 135-145 HP.
Depends(R) underwear change rating: "ERROR! OFF SCALE, PLEASE INSTALL PLUG IN COLONOSCOPY BAG". Don't say I didn't warn you!


As far as taking the fairing off I think the Gen1 is ok to take off but you may have to buy a headlight assembly if you want to go naked. Gen2 you need a new instrument cluster as well. It can be done, but the general consensus is it's too much work for having no wind protection but hey go ahead it's your bike. But at 150 MPH or just normal long extended highway runs you may miss that fairing. I don't know for the GEN1 Bandit what you need jet wise as I have a GEN2 which uses different carbs but I'm sure someone here will help you out to get started.




« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:27:56 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.