Inconsistent Oil Level Readings

[sue_zoo_key]

Hi,

My concern is that I have had one incident of very extreme deviations in oil readings.

My question is what could have caused it?

Here are the facts.
600 miles ago I changed my oil (Mobile 1 Motorcycle 10w-40, K&R Filter, measured amount of oil, then topping of after riding, etc...). When I checked the oil each time before and after riding it was consistent (not over full and more then half way between low and full). This was the case for about 500 miles after the oil change.

Then one day before riding (I had not checked the level immediately after the last ride) there was NO oil visible in the sight glass. I started the engine briefly, shut it down...still no oil...repeated...nothing. It took about a pint to get it back to the 'correct' level.

The reading was consistent for the next couple of rides (300 miles). Then today I noticed the oil level is over filled. I have not removed any oil yet, or ridden it again.

I bought the bike with 8,500 miles and it now at 9,500 miles. Other than this incident is in great shape and runs very well.  I have never seen it burn oil at start-up or anytime while riding (recently I have asked people riding with me to keep an eye out for signs of oil burning).

Seems to me I had an oil blockage somewhere in the engine/oil cooler. maybe the oil cooling system can trap some of the oil? Has anyone experienced anything like this or have any recommendations?

Thanks!

[txbanditrydr]

Firstly...   to the site.

I don't have any specific answers to your questions but do NOT run the bike with oil above the full level - drain some out (long straw or syringe is easier) before running it.

You might share the procedure you're using to check the oil - side stand, centerstand, no-stand... and make sure you're doing the same way every time.

I use the centerstand and try to keep it centered in the sight-glass... I think proper (per manual) level is attained off the centerstand and sitting on a level surface.  I could never do that without dropping the bike.

Again - Glad you found us.

[sue_zoo_key]

Hi,

Thanks for the warning... I would never run an engine with out of spec oil quantity.

I am measuring the oil by balancing the bike (with the side stand down), while on a known level spot in my garage.

I am using a very repeatable method and the amount of variation was significant...that is why I was asking if there is a situation that can exist where a significant amount of oil does not make it back to where it would register on the sight glass.

Thanks.

[Dave 02 1200]

Put it on the center stand, not the side stand, so the bike will be level.

Oil should be visible in the sight glass about the middle of the glass.

[sue_zoo_key]

"I am measuring the oil by balancing the bike (with the side stand down), while on a known level spot in my garage."

The side stand is down for safety. I am on the right side of the bike pulling it to vertical. The bike is perfectly balanced/level on both axis.

The season is almost over I'll have it looked at over the winter.

Thanks.

[Dave 02 1200]

If you are attempting to hold the bike level to get a reading you will not get an accurate reading because a very slight change in position, just a few degrees, will cause a wide swing in what you see in the window.

If I put my bike on the center stand so I can see the oil level in the middle of the sight glass and then move the bike ever so slightly, it appears to be overfilled or underfilled.

[sue_zoo_key]

You are absolutely correct.

I do not want to complicate this posting, but the problem is not my method of reading my oil level. Lets assume I can read the oil correctly. or at least consistently.

Does anyone know of a reason that would prevent oil from returning to the sump? If a oil passage was blocked?

Thanks/

[wizzobeer]

I have noticed a similar issue with my bike and I always check the oil level when on the centre stand. Not sure what the issue is, but I do my own oil changes and put the right amount in so I have never worried about it. I have found that if I leave it on the stand for a while the oil often comes back.

[pmackie]

I have never seen this problem on my bike. I also can't think of anything "holding" the oil back preventing proper level, wih the unlikley exception of a blocked vent hose, which in theory could cause a slight build up of pressure in the case after a ride. You could check the vent hose and also remove the fill plug before checking level...that's about the only suggestion I have.

I tried checking my oil level by holding it straight up and down, but unlike you, I could NOT get repeatable, consistant results, so I changed to checking it on the centre stand with a small block of wood under the front tire to  bring it up to level.

[rider123]

Well the manual says to have both tires on the ground when measuring oil. If it's on the centre stand the bike will lean a little to the front which will artificially make the oil seem lower than it is. If you're going to use the centre stand only fill to half or slightly lower between Full and Low, anymore and it will be overfilled. I do the same thing I have both tires on the ground with the side stand down then tilt the bike level to measure oil, worked for me the last 25 years.

Also, wait at least an hour to check the oil after riding it, it will give the oil time to drain out of the oil cooler and upper oil gallerys etc. to collect in the oil pan otherwise you'll think it's low but the oil just hasn't drained from the top end yet into the pan. Best time is in the morning where it's been left overnight. Thats when I check it as the oil has had plenty of time to collect in the pan.

[sue_zoo_key]

I'm with everyone about a stable way of measuring the oil. personally I like the idea of putting the bike on the centerstand and shimming the front tire, which was a method I actually used to double check the odd measurement.

FYI, successfully holding the bike balanced upright requires years of practice, meditation, oh yeah and having a KLR650 with no centerstand. ;)

I know it is not how I measured the oil, because the level was so low I could not get oil to show in the sightglass unless the bike was seriously tipped over. I started the bike several times, but no oil would show. I put in a pint or more so the level was between max and min. Went for a ride and when I came back the oil I added had to be removed. 

There is something else at play. I'll just take it to the mechanic next time it happens.
I'm thinking I must have something that is intermittently plugging some oil passages. I was going to research the SACS system and see if a fault in that system could be a factor.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

[rider123]

Well you could do this for a cheap but possibly messy fix. Go buy a couple of gallons the cheapest ass oil you can find at least 10w30 in weight nothing lighter. Drive your bike around with high rpms basically having some fun with it, with the good oil you have in there now(maybe add a little seafoam). The high rpm should really blast the oil galleries if there is any sludge. Drain the oil, put the cheap stuff in there and ride around a bit, just keep an eye on the engine temps. To help wash out any of the sludge, there are some chemicals off the shelf which help with sludge you can add them if you wish. Drain the cheap oil out after a day or two, don't go too crazy on the RPMs (>6000) as the oil will be lighter. Change the oil again to the cheap stuff, run that through again for another day or two. Drain it out and change the oil filter with a brand new one and put in the good stuff. Check the oil level.

What this does is really flush out the engine of any gunk or sludge build up in the engine I've done this on several bikes I've bought that had previous owner neglect. Ie. They've been sitting in a garage with the same oil for years, and it really is surprising what kind of crap comes out of the engine after you flush it a few times. The alternative is to tear down the engine and go through the galleries with a rag, at the minimum a winter project at the worst hundreds of dollars in shop time. So I suggest the $10 cheap oil flush fix first as even looking at the engine the shop will charge you a minimum rate which is usually around $50-$75 an hour. Chances are they would do the same thing and not only charge you shop time but the cost of the oil and they wouldn't use the cheap stuff.

If you don't have a specific oil pan to drain the oil into you can go to the Dollar store or a grocery store and buy a few of the big tin turkey pans which is more than enough to hold the oil in the bike when it's drained, bend one end of the tin pan into a spout and pour it into empty 2 litre coke bottles, cap it and it's ready for taking to the recycling centre in your city or town. You may want to buy a funnel for the 2 litre bottles and put some newspaper down as it can get messy. Wait at least half an hour before you drain the oil unless you want to burn yourself, that way the oil will still be warm and flow nicely but you won't have to go to the clinic with scalding burns. After you've flushed it a couple of times, then put the good stuff in, remember once you've drain the oil all out and put in a brand new filter(or not if the filter is already new) once you check the oil it will look like it's at the proper level, howver it hasn't reached the upper oil galleries and the oil cooler. So once it looks ok start the engine and run it for a minute or two to really circulate the oil. Then let it sit for 15 minutes or so and then check the oil again. You'll notice it has gone down as now it has circulated the engine. The manual says that without a filter change you should put in 3.3L and with a filter change 3.5L. So put 3 Liters in and then keep a close eye when you top it up. If you're going past 3.3L(3.5L with a filter change) without a filter change you've gone too far regardless what the window is saying.

Even if you've bought your bike brand new and are a jihadi when it comes to changing your oil it's a good idea to use this method to flush the oil out maybe every 10 oil changes if you are really concerned about it. That $10 worth of cheap oil flush may save hundreds later. At the minimum you eliminate a potential source of the problem, and flush the engine for $10 so either way you win.


Here's an article and you can see the nasty pics. Whomever owned this car shouldn't own one again.

http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm

Here's amsoil's engine flush for a sample product, they basically tell you the same thing I told you except they say to keep the same oil which is not as a complete of a flush:

http://www.kc-synthetic-oil.com/cleaning-engine-oil-sludge.html


When changing the cheap oil adding some sea foam has helped a bunch of people:

http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-use-sea-foam-motor-treatment.html

[wizzobeer]

Not sure if this is just my ignorance, but it seems to me that a simple issue is turning very complicated. What I would do if I was really worried is: drain oil, add 3400 mL (or 3600 ml) what ever it says by the fill tube and ride. From my experience, the sight glass only offers an estimated amount of oil contained. I have had wild variations over the course of a day (1000+k), leave the bike overnight on the centre stand and all my oil reappears. Now if the oil doesn't reaper I would be worried.

 

[sue_zoo_key]

@rider123 and @wizzobeer,

I agree with both your last posts. I am actually already in the process of going the flush route. The bike had compression tests and some other work by a local mechanich that indicated it was in good health, but I had concerns that the previous owner was stretching the manual's already long (in my opinion) oil and filter intervals...especially in light that the bike only had 8.5K miles after 6 years. So the oil would have been changed at 800 - 1,200 miles by the dealer and then 7,500 miles by the owner.

It is cheap insurance for me to go the oil flush route. Especially when no one can say is common to have the variations describe, and the one potential culprit is in line with previous owner service behavior.

I like the bike and I don't want to ignore the symptoms and shorten its life.

Is Seafoam, or the Amsoil flush actually safe for the clutch? I am a little sceptical that they are.

Thanks.

[rider123]

If you're really concerned about the previous owners maintenance habits after the flush run a few synthetic oil changes through it. They are more expensive, but synthetic oil is more resistant to sludge buildup.

Sea foam won't hurt the clutch one bit, but I wouldn't go to the drag strip or do some sort of "Ultimate burnout" competition to test it. Just drive normally, it's only going to be in there a day or two. The clutch isn't really affected by putting in cleaning additives, in fact if the oil is less slippery the clutch works better. The early synthetics were causing clutch slippage in wet clutches and wern't recommended by any of the big four manufacturers untill maybe a decade ago.

Sometimes buying a low milage bike with a few years on it is worse then buying the same bike with higher milage. The worse thing you can do to a bike or car is let it sit for long periods of time as it can kill the valve springs that are compressed when the engine stops and if you're changing oil by the milage it may sit in contaminated oil for months or even years at a time the acids eating at internal parts and sludging up. Even in the depths of winter I go to the garage and run the bike every month for 10 mins min to make sure everything is unstuck and the juices are still flowing and uncompress compressed valve springs/charge the battery. Come springtime I just start it up and go because it's been semi-running over the winter.