Author Topic: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit  (Read 56012 times)

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2012, 04:46:36 PM »
Pulled the plugs. They still haven't got any colouring on them yet. Basically look brand new.  :wtf:
Maybe they ignite the a/f mix better than the single ground electrode type NGK? If so, maybe I can go richer again?
Nothing ever remains static does it? Just when I think I got it sorted I go and change plugs and now this presents new questions. :rant2:

Well, on the bright side these Denso plugs are half the price of their NGK counterparts. Denso plugs for B12 $7ea. NGK's are between $12 and $15 each from bike stores here. Yep, the STANDARD ones - not iridium, or platinums. ebay I can get NGK's for $20 for 4 or something like that.

This thread is getting r e a l l y long, should we start a new one?
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2012, 08:43:58 PM »
The dual spark might be a slightly hotter/more complete burn, running cleaner. Any hint of leaness? Ie hesitation when wacking the throttle open? Etc? Excessive popping? If not don't worry about it. If you want do alot of in town driving, will lots of idling, low speeds, etc. That will carbon them up faster. Since you basically have the same jetting as before it's not going to kill anything, but if you want to try 4 turns out for fun go for it. It does take a while to carbon them up. If the jetting was fine before I would just leave it for a while at least. See what happens after 1000kms. Proper jetting doesn't change after new plugs. The same effect of the dual sparks can be reproduced better by side-gapping the plugs but the plugs wear out a little faster, good allegedly for another horsepower or two.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:27:20 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline canyonbreeze

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2012, 12:41:40 PM »
Dual Spark?  More likely to be only one spark to the electrode that has the best ionization path when the charge is reached to arc.  Dual electrodes increase lifetime and reliability.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2012, 05:25:22 AM »
Does not dual ground staps mean a dual spark? Or does it randomize between the path of least resistance as voltage is applied to the plug? I've been looking at the Denso site and they have some interesting spark plugs there, some even are doing the side gapping thing to get more of the spark exposed to the fuel charge. I haven't seen these types for motorcycles in Canada, I wonder if they are around here and I'm just not seeing them. Hmmm. For fun when I change my spark plugs out I may side gap the older ones for fun to see if it actually does burn better or not. Since I will be throwing them out anyway if it goes wrong at least I'm not wasting the plugs. The problem with side gapping while it slightly increases fuel mileage and maybe a slight increase in power, it reduces plug life. If you're super crazy and replace your plugs every year I guess it wouldn't matter but for the rest of us it may be more of a pain then gain. However on the flip side it must be doing something otherwise the spark plug manufacturer's wouldn't bother with it otherwise.

With the factory "side gapping" with two ground straps it's less of a problem since it has double the amount material that needs to wear out. So theoretically if for some reason it wears out one electrode you still have another one in there to get a good spark.

I found a link that sort of explains side gapping what it does and doesn't do. Allegedly it's an old racers trick that dates from the late 60's. I imagine to get even more of a benefit you would have to index the plugs as well. From what I gather on the internet the biggest benefit is fuel economy where the mixtures are in lean cruise and any ignition efficiency helps in power which translates to fuel economy at very small throttle openings. It also reduces fouling and generally gives you a cleaner burn which may help with emissions.

It's basically the poor man's premium spark plug mod

http://performanceunlimited.com/documents/plugsidegapping.html

Octane is lucky since his factory side-gapped and dual ground strapped Denso's are actually cheaper than the stock NGK's. I've been using the stock NGK's and they are usually pretty pricey around 9 or $10 for one plug. However I can't seem to find a cheaper replacement at Canadian Tire. I understand a lot of guys here really like the Autolite brand, however here we only have AC Delco's as an American brand for spark plugs, unless they are a re-branded Autolite.


Heres a forum link with Dyno numbers before and after. This is a car but a Gas engine is a gas engine. He picked up 7 horsepower on his car. 5 from side gapping and 2 from indexing.

http://www.sr20-forum.com/naturally-aspirated-all-motor/16898-how-side-gap-spark-plugs.html

He cut his ground strap right to the edge of the electrode, maybe to be safer maybe I'd grind a little less to maybe just before so there is a bit of an overlap. Some guys only go to the middle of the electrode so I guess you can experiment. After all the Dyno doesn't lie. Realistically you'd probably see only 1 or 2 hp MAX gain but the fuel economy and cleaner burning would be the greatest benefit.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 12:20:18 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2012, 09:37:32 AM »
Here is our Ho hum stock NGK JR9B's that I have:

If you look closely at the ground strap, NGK has tapered the end of the ground strap and put it squarely on top of the centre of the electrode so it is already better than say a normal automotive plug where the ground strap completely covers and shrouds the electrode. It wouldn't take much to file it down slightly to be in line with the electrode. Since it's already tapered they must have thought the same thing about letting the ground strap not interfere with the flame front as much as possible. I've seen some other guys file their spark plugs to a point with a more aggressive taper when they side gap with a little overlap of the ground strap onto the electrode so I guess NGK must be thinking the same thing however they didn't do it so aggressively to let the plugs last. Although I have had my plugs in there for 3 years and other than the normal build up of soot, they look new. No sign of wear yet however I'm not redlining the bike everywhere.

Is this your plug Octane?


As you can see the spark is going to jump from the sharp edges of the ground strap to the centre electrode at the side so when the fuel is ignited and creates the power to push the piston down the ignition is not being shrouded and interfered with by the ground strap covering the spark.

Here's NGK's "racing" plug, what is it really? It's just a extremely side-gapped single ground strap plug. Nothing fancy. If it didn't work I don't think they would make it. This may be a little too aggressive for the street, gaping it up in line with the electrode gives it some more meat to last.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/spark_plugs/racing.asp?mode=nml#

Here is a pic I captured from a movie of a spark plug firing, as you can see the spark is taking the shortest route possible from the electrode right where you trim the ground strap for this mod. The rest of the ground strap is barely being used so all it's doing is shrouding the spark from the fuel/air mixture



Heres a cool video showing normal and the 4 prong expensive jobbies compared to this new ring technology plug. But as you can see in the video with the normal plug there is almost no exposure of the spark head on as the spark is shrouded by the ground strap. Looking at the 4 prong expensive jobbies it does a way better job of exposing the spark, except I don't want to pay $25 a plug when a cheaper one will do the same job with a few mins with the dremel or file. Even if you only get a couple of years out of the cheap plugs it's still a good deal as you can buy 4 times the amount of normal plugs than the fancy plugs cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY-mfctgB9A&feature=related
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:25:07 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2012, 03:29:41 PM »
After reading NGK's 'site about plugs - really as long as your plug is in good condition, correct type and heat range, that's all you need. Iridiums / platinums are IMO a waster of money for a Bandit. They're so easy to pull out and replace. If you had say a car you had to dismantle half the induction system to get to the plugs, then yes the long life ones would make sense.
These Denso plugs, I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to get. It's just that where I live they are easiest and cheapest to procure. May even buy a box of them while they are that price. Should last me years.

Used to be a plug back in the 90's called splitfire. Had a forked ground electrode and a V grooved centre electrode from memory.
Big claims etc. meh....
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2012, 03:50:37 PM »
Splitfire sort of does the same thing by moving the spark to the edges of the ground strap to get closer to the A/F mixture with a V to help expose the spark to the fuel charge. Really the best plug in the world would be one that uses plasma or grounds on the piston crown or something with zero interference from ground straps. I'm willing to give this a go a little later in the season when I normally change my plugs. I'll mod the old ones and throw them in there, I know the best test is with a new set of plugs but if it doesn't work so great I would rather wreck the ones I was going to throw out anyway. In the States it's even easier as you can get sparkplugs down there for like $2 so a wasting $8 on a set is not a big deal at all. I wouldn't bother side gapping Iridiums or any other fancy spark plugs, this is only a good mod for the super cheap specials as they will wear out faster. The fancy plugs address the problem of ground strap shrouding in their own ways so it's not as necessary to side-gap them.

I believe this mod might actually work better than the 2 or 4 ground strap jobbies as the spark is higher on the spark plug which will ignite deeper into the fuel charge. However like the article on this mod suggested that if the spark plug manufacturers make their "premium" plugs basically the same as their standard but with the ground strap slightly trimmed but charged you $10 for $2 plug everyone would side gap their plugs at home. So they try to hide it on their premium plugs with multiple ground straps or special materials etc. so the customers can justify the higher price and can't readily reproduce them.

The only benefit I can see out of all of the premium plugs currently out there is the ones with rare materials such as platinum or iridium which are very tough materials which may allow the plugs to theoretically run for the life of the vehicle. The also have a very fine tips which increase the spark power. The newer ones in development have a ring or the electrodes are sunken and the ground strap is the edge of where the base ring is so the spark is massive and instead of a single ground strap to wear out there is a whole ring so they should last theoretically for the life of the car but I'm not sure thats a good thing as far as the spark plug manufacturers are concerned.



« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 01:01:43 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2012, 01:51:29 AM »
One thing I noticed thismorning. Roads were empty so I was having an experiment with the bike. 3rd gear  & 5000rpm (approx) maintaining that speed and throttle and then would pin the throttle wide open and hold it for 2-3 seconds.
What I noticed was a slight hesitation but not from the initial opening. It would power on and momentarily hesitate and then power on again. Tried this over a few times.
Tried it in 5th at about 4000rpm. No hesitation.
Would you think this may be needle setting?
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2012, 04:30:58 AM »
Could be. I'd say mainjet is probably a little light as the throttle was wide open so the needle wouldn't make a difference. I got my 112.5's and my 15's I just have to wait until its warm to install and test. What was the temp/altitude? You have the needle full rich already correct? A lower gear so you can feel the power more which is useful, at top gear it's kind of hard to tell. Since the power came on fast up to probably 3/4 throttle I'd say your needle is fine. Maybe try some 115's and tell me so I can save a step!!!  :grin: However it is in the mid-range so you could try a shim if you have them if your maxed out on the needle which may hide the hole better or maybe a 1/4 turn out to four turns which will slightly richen the overall mixture. But I'd wager a dollar it's the mainjet. I'm not sure what the equivalent needle position is with my 5 Holeshot shims are like on there but from what I've read it's full rich on an adjustable PLUS 1 shim. If it ever gets above 2 degrees Celsius I'll pop the new jets in there and try it but it will be super cold and is not really a good test.

If you want to test up top try putting taping over 1/8th of the airbox hole up, or pop in the stock filter temporarily and test again. No more as if it's too rich it will do the same thing. But since we'll be both be only 1 step up from the stock filter stage 1 which flows WAY LESS than the K&N I'd say 115's is probably perfect. If you go up you may have to adjust the needle but leave it where it is for now as the problem area is up top >3/4 throttle. I have the same symptoms but even more exaggerated as I'm one below you. Even with the horridly rich cruise which helps a bit I get the same thing

Power--->Hesitate--->Power

If the needle was the problem it would hesitate on initial throttle opening then take off like this:

Hesitate---->Power

Remember these bike are carburated and not fuel injected so a very slight hesitation(almost imperceptible) would be normal, but the degree of "normal" would be determined by a plug check after a 2-3 second full throttle run and then hitting the kill switch and checking the plugs. The last 2/3 of the centre electrode will be burned clean but the base ring around where the ground strap is welded to would show you if you were lean or rich. It should be lightly coloured with a full turn of grey soot and deep in the plug at the base of the electrode. If there are spots of black on it it's too rich. If the grey soot doesn't go all the way around for a full turn and the base of the electrode deep in the plug is bone white it's too lean. A dyno pull or two with an air fuel chart would really help you out but if you do that be sure to either remove the PAIR bullshit or at least clamp the PAIR air feed on the right hand side of the airbox underneath the carbs so it doesn't register artificially lean.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 11:37:46 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline PaulVS

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2012, 09:35:01 AM »
Haven't followed this entire thread, but I got 4 NGK Iridiums for $30 shipped.... which given their abililty to last longer than standard plugs... makes it definitely worth the investment.


Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2012, 10:09:23 AM »
Sorry Paul, what were you saying? Your sig distracted me.  :grin: I think this must be one of the longest running threads on this board. It has it all from plug choice/side gapping etc. to jetting.  :yikes:

I would agree with Paul that the new Iridiums do look interesting and it eliminates mostly the problem of the spark being shrouded from the fuel charge from the ground strap. And theoretically they would be the last spark plugs you buy. I guess they harnessed some meteorites or something for the iridium.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 10:41:21 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2012, 05:45:05 PM »
Well I popped in those jets and I can say for sure that the rich cruise problem is fixed however 112.5's are not enough. Now its only about 10 degrees Celsius here now for the testing. I can say it's close but it defiantly needs at least one more to 115 mainjet with the K&N filter on there 117.5 on the outside. You being around 30 degrees Celcius will be closer but I would wager you need 115's at least as well. That is probably why your hesitating at mid-range which is a leaner area on rpm range when going full throttle. When the bike cools I'll pull the plugs to get a general jetting as it was rush hour so I didn't go above 60 or 70 km/h however for now I'll pop the stock filter on there and see what happens.

Settings:

15 pilots 4 turns out(perfect with K&N)
112.5 mains (too lean with K&N)
1.5 inch hole in airbox
K&N filter(will go back to stock)
5 shims

If I pop the stocker on there I may have to adjust the mixture screws in a 1/4 turn but at least the horrid richness down low is fixed. Tomorrow is another 10 degree day so I'll test it again with the stock filter on there and see, it may be ironically a little rich. At least I still have the 110's I'll see whether I want to go up(K&N) or down(Stock filter). Or it may be fine as I was a little lean up top with the 110's.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 05:52:35 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2012, 02:39:31 PM »
Ok its been a while but I finally tore into my bandit. It had the stock filter, 110 mains, 17.5 pilots, I got a snorkel and theres a 1.5 hole in the air box. I didnt pull the top apart to see what kind of needles are in there. Everything looked clean no shit no biuld up but I still have the top end hesitation. Im going to get the 112.5 mains with the 17.5s about how many turns out do I want to be?? I seen 4 with stock pilots so around 2??

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2012, 04:01:32 PM »
It's 1 1/2 turns in on the equivalent lower size pilot jet. Whats the temperature in your area? I think Dale is over using the upped pilot jets. His kit didn't use to come with the larger pilot jet however a few people needed them for where they were living so he threw it in there and recommend it in his instructions. It makes it horridly rich down low, he also forgets to mention in the instructions that if you go up one on the pilots you must turn in the screws 1 1/2 turns in(got that from factory pro) to get the equivalent mixture at idle with the stock ones. So say you are 4 turns out on 15's that means you will be 2.5 turns out on the 17.5's to get the equivalent idle mixture.

So his recommended settings:

3.75 turns out on the 15's would be
2.25 on the 17.5's

4 tuns at the 15's = 2.5 at the 17.5's etc. etc.

You may have to go back to the 15's after you pop the 112.5's in there, but maybe not depending on your bike. For me the 17.5's, it was horridly rich and I'm at only 1000 ft altitude. His recommended settings were wonky on my bike. Super rich down low and cruise, lean up top. So I popped in the stock pilots and have them to 4 turns out for now, but I know its a bit much should be more to his recommended 3.75 turns out but I'll have to test in the spring. Really his instructions should read: "If you go past 4.25 or 4.5 turns out then go the next pilot up and turn the mixture screws in 1 1/2 turns in". You can't just arbitrarily suggest everyone goes up on the pilots. Pilots and cruise mixtures are not usually an issue on these bikes, it's all top end and mid-range thats weak. If you went to a stage 2 then I could see you needing larger pilots but for a stage 1 which is mostly a stock config, I think it's a bit much. At low throttle inputs the 1.5" hole isn't making that much of a difference. Only at larger throttle inputs does it really come into effect and that's all needle and mainjet. Plus the mainjet size will have a small effect on cruise and down low anyway.

75% of the cruise and idle mixture is dictated by pilot size
25% is the mixture screw setting.

So if your rich on the pilots, even if you bottomed out the mixture screws it would only kill off 25% of the needed mixture for idle. However 25% is alot and since the stage 1 is really only coming into play at larger throttle inputs the pilot jet in the stock configuration can probably do the job just fine as you are using the stock filter. If you go to a K&N pod type situation then you will defiantly have to go up on the pilots as the air flow dynamic has changed. I'm keeping my 17.5's in case I need them when going to the K&N panel filter stage 1 but I doubt I'll need them. Pods however is a different story.

Since you're already at 110's + 17.5's your about the same overall in jetting to what I am at, but if the pilots are supplying that extra 2.5cc of jetting down low it's in the wrong rpm/throttle range. Maybe you like me need more up top, and less down low. Put it this way. You have 110 main jet + 17.5 pilot jet so you are supplying 127.5 cc/min fuel max(+ or - mixture screw settings). I have a 112.5 main + 15 size pilot so I'm at 127.5 max as well, we have the same overall jetting however I'm supplying the extra juice up top where it's needed. While the pilots do add to the overall jetting, on the stage 1 all the juice needs to be at the top not the bottom. So when you are tuning your bike your using the mixture screws to adjust idle and cruise to not be so crazily rich so any advantage of those larger pilots helping you up top is lost a bit. The sole function of the pilots is to provide cruise and idle and below 1/4 turn throttle inputs. I know Dynojet likes to use mainly the pilots as a crutch to provide a disproportional amount of fueling in their kits, that's why they suck on the GEN2 Bandits, the pilot is too small to provide the kind of fueling needed by their fueling philosophy and why their mainjets are actually LEANER than stock and use their specially tapered needle to provide a fueling profile. Some guys like to tune their bikes to be super lean at cruise to get fuel milage but have huge mainjets so when they are on the throttle they have power. However this is at a cost of drivability and below half throttle performance. It's sort of a all or nothing thing which some guys like.


EDIT:
Sorry forgot to mention I'm back on the stock filter. The K&N needs probably at least 115's or 117.5's to be good. I'll try that out in the spring maybe, it's running pretty good like this:

15 pilots 4 turns out(slightly rich but it's cold out 3.75 should be good in spring)
112.5 mains One up from Dales recommended settings
5 shims.
Stock air filter
1.5" hole in the airbox.
snorkel in
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 06:16:06 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2012, 06:38:44 PM »
I checked the needles and theres a white plastic shim in there 1/8in thick im guessing thats stock??