Starting problem. Rrr..... click. click. click.

[stormi]

Hey everyone,

This has been a problem since we pulled the old girl out of storage this year.

At first, she would turn over slowly,.. then faster faster and catch.  Today, it became a:
rrr.....rr.......................r........................ click.

And stormi gets to screw up her back bump starting the bike again.

The other half said it -could- be battery, or a loose connection but we hadn't yet tested it, I said starter.  I'm not convinced it's either at this point.

I have a spare starter, and I just tested the battery, before an attempted start, it was 12.18V, after an attempted start 11.20V.  So,.. that seems to me that the charging system is OK, but there's a HUGE draw.

But that click (from the starter relay),... it seems wrong for a starter problem,.. no?

I'm gonna head outside and do a removature, and see if I can tell if that's the problem, I sort of hope it is, because of the spare,.. but do they usually fail this fast?

[ZenMan]

Stormi... it's not so much the volts as it is the amps. It could read 12 volts but not have enough amps or "grunt" to start it. And below 12 volts is not good either.

Offhand it sounds like either a weak battery or bad connection/cables/terminals. Do you have another battery from one of your other bikes you could substitute? Or take that battery and try it in another bike?

Try charging it overnight. Take off your cables and clean the terminals real good. Check the water level. Then go from there.  

[stormi]

I'm not totally sure.  The starting system is so not my forte.  I have only one other bike with a battery.  It's the 919.  Here's the thing.  The batteries are fairly different.

The 919 uses a YTZ10S, which I think is a 10A battery (though yuasa's site says 8.6A).  It has 190CCA,   The suzuki uses a YTX9-BS - 12V,8AH battery and 120 Cold Cranking Amps.

Here's what I can never remember,.. is it amps I can "ignore", as in more is fine, less not so good... or watts or volts?

The change of starter didn't do the job btw, same behavior.

Which reading will I get when I test the amps on the bike?  Resting, or CCA?  ( I really don't get along with my multimeter.  Once a year I use it, and once a year, I have to relearn how it works.)

I did make sure the connections were good.  Both to the starter, and to the battery.  The connectors look good, but I will clean them tomorrow.


See if I get Dita new exhaust anymore after this little antic!!

[Sven]

And stormi gets to screw up her back bump starting the bike again.

It's just a little scoliosis, you don't have to call it a "back bump".

[stormi]

And stormi gets to screw up her back bump starting the bike again.

It's just a little scoliosis, you don't have to call it a "back bump".

erm,.. k,.. let me correct my punctuation.  

And stormi gets to screw up her back, "bump starting" the bike again.

I damn near dropped her on her brand new pipe today while bump starting her.  *sigh*

[ZenMan]

You can ignore watts... volts are important, but amps are the "juice" you need to crank the starter.

Turn the ignition on without starting it. How's the headlight? Does it stay nice and bright even after 10 minutes?

If you already changed the starter, then that ain't it. The terminals should be taken completely off and cleaned thoroghly with wire brush or sandpaper.

Otherwise I'm guessing it's your battery.

[stormi]

Took the battery out, and it's currently charging.  It's been charging almost 1.5Hrs at 900mA, and hasn't hit maintenance mode yet, so it was definately low on amps.  

Here's a neat thing... before I put it on to charge, I turned the multimeter to DC Amps in the 10A range, and tested it.  Nothing.  Zip, zilch, Zero.  Then I tried the Common lead in the 10A unfused postion,... still nothing.  Could the battery truly have had absolutely no amps?  Or is there something wrong with my multimeter (blown fuse?), or Did I somehow mess up the logic on that?  It did read at 12.22V,.. so the volts part recovered while I let it sit...

I guess what I was saying was if it's more Amps,.. am I risking frying anything?  Is there any reason, based on what I posted above why I should or shouldn't try the 919's battery?  

Hah!  On the B4, the light would never stay bright more than a minute or 2, even fully charged with a brand new battery.

The reason I thought starter is the other half's brother had a POS jeep that had a bad starter and it would start slow then speed up with the turning, then finally catch.  Lots of fun when he's living in your basement and leaves for work really early, and his jeep is outside your window while he's trying to start it every morning.  He replaced the starter and that problem went away.  

Proved myself wrong though with the swap tonight.  Lost all that skin for nothing.  Oh well.  (It WAS worth it to do that work, and let the other half supervise the pre-teen and her co-pre-teen friend! *I'da poked my eyes out*.  Of course there were wedgies all around with all those low cut jeans.  *evil grin* )

Hmm,.. remove the terminals altogether?  That could be a real chore on the b4.  I'll post pics tomorrow as to why that is,.. but mainly it's because they're part of the wiring loom...

[CWO4GUNNER]

Zens right , swap a good battery even a car battery with short cables just to verify the starting system will crank correctly. If a known good power source and new starter still has her cranking slow, then the relay my be pitted to the point that it is not passing enough current to the starter. After starting up the bike to test the charging system just pull the positive lead off the battery momentarily, the bike should continue to run, if not the charging system has a problem.

[okbandit]

Bad battery is my vote.  You can only read amperage of electricity in motion.   If you try that amp check again while starting you should see a reading.  Also if it was pulling an excess of amperage (bad starter) you will feel heat in the cable to the starter and likely a lot of it.

[ZenMan]

Stormi, if the battery terminals are corroded between the lead battery posts and the cable-end clamps, you must take them apart to clean them. It's good maintenance anyway.

Also check the cables themselves, corrosion can get under the rubber insulation. Squeeze and roll them between your fingers and feel for softness or crunching.

If you get it running and take a cable off to see if it still runs, take the negative cable off, not the positive. If the positive is hot and you touch it to ground, you could damage the charging system.

If you charge the battery and it still does the same thing, the battery could still be bad. It just means it won't hold a charge, it won't hold any amps.

It won't hurt to switch batteries.  

[stormi]

Well, we priced a starter relay out last night. ($45 USD)  Since I have a few parts to order anyway, I'm going to run through the test in the service manual and perhaps order one as a spare as well.

I'm also going to run her through the Electrosport test, to test the whole AVR system  prior to picking up a battery for her.  (Which, by virtue of putting the battery back in, also lets me test out all the other things we've talked about here too. :))  Messing with battery cables while running scares the hell out of me though, it's tight in there, and I don't feel like a new hairdo...

So, if I can use a car battery, that means effectively then, I -can- ignore the amps, as long as the volts are right?

The other half mentioned that this -is- the same battery that we had a failed Regulator rectifier do its number on, so maybe its time is just up.

[stormi]

Bad battery is my vote.  You can only read amperage of electricity in motion.   If you try that amp check again while starting you should see a reading.  Also if it was pulling an excess of amperage (bad starter) you will feel heat in the cable to the starter and likely a lot of it.

Oh Duh!! I think I knew that.      That's why that electrosport test is done with the bike on.

I will check the temperature of the cables and starter while testing as well.  I did notice the starter seemed hot yesterday (burnt my hand on it), but the engine was hot too, so it was a bad time to test, so I made a mental note to check that again after I got home and let her cool.  Then I tossed the note away.  

[Red01]

You can have a battery that's capable of putting out more cranking amps than you need, the system will just draw what it needs and the remainder is in reserve.

Have you tried jump starting? I jumped my B12 with my riding mower after months of non-use when I returned from France. Worked great.

[stormi]

I see no corrosion at all, but I will look a lot closer at all parts now that it's light out.  That's one benefit of our -usually- dry climate. Corrosion isn't often an issue. I'll go find the sandpaper and make sure she's got a good chance at starting.

Check,.. Neg cable if I'm brave enough.  Like I said, it's tight in there, and I have grounded by accident in there once or twice.  Blew up a screwdriver bit that way.

I know I'm being a little neurotic, I just didn't want to have to buy 2 batteries (one for Blue and one for Dita), and some more charging system parts for Dita if I guessed wrong.

Poor Blue,.. first Dita gets a slip on, then he becomes a donor bike for her.  Bad day for the Honda.  

[stormi]

You can have a battery that's capable of putting out more cranking amps than you need, the system will just draw what it needs and the remainder is in reserve.

THAT's what I was trying to get at! :) Thanks!

Have you tried jump starting? I jumped my B12 with my riding mower after months of non-use when I returned from France. Worked great.

Yeah, the muffler shop did it yesterday to test for leaks.  Started right up after barely a touch to the start button.  Oh,... now that I think about it, that points to the battery too doesn't it?

See what happens when I take 6 months off from troubleshooting,... er,.. riding?

The jumping is a temporary measure though.   I want to fix the problem permanently.  Technically, I don't need a starter, just a month or so of working out so I have the upper body strength to push start her all the time... ;)

So,.. how come on the Jeep, the solution was a starter, and on the bike it's more than likely the battery, but the symptoms are (were) the same ( til yesterday's fiasco)

Yeah yeah,... I'm going out to test it, cos I won't get anything else done til I do.