Author Topic: Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)  (Read 10475 times)

Offline Nitro

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2007, 03:06:55 AM »
We can always rename the thread "Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Brake Fluid"
97 Bandit 1200S

Offline mademiriam

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2007, 09:44:52 AM »
"everything you wanted to know about brake fluid but were afraid to hear a response to",  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Just kidding guys, it's been an informative debate. From a purely personal standpoint I find it very annoying that when I do research for something and see articles and 'tests'. It's hard to know what to believe, 'where's the money' is what I usually ask myself but realistically it's so easy to hide that sort of thing.
Now back outside to bleed my brakes...
(oh and even after following this post...I'm not sure how I feel about DOT5., once a skeptic always a skeptic.)
'05 Bandit 1200, Full Muzzy, Dyno jet stage 1, 5 degree ignition advancer, Galfer SS Lines, EBC rotors, busa shock, busa forks
'03 R6 trackbike

Offline ZenMan

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2007, 11:26:53 AM »
Quote from: "mademiriam"
(oh and even after following this post...I'm not sure how I feel about DOT5., once a skeptic always a skeptic.)


DO NOT USE![/size]

DOT 5 will ooze out of your garage at night, sneak into your bedroom and choke you to death! Then set your house on fire!!!

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
"Hmmm... near certainty of death with little chance of success... what are we waiting for?"

Offline Red01

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2007, 03:57:42 PM »
Quote from: "ZenMan"
Quote from: "Red01"
I only came down hard on your original post because of the difficulty in getting ALL the DOT 4 fluid out. You do not want DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 coming in conact with DOT 5. It's just plain unsafe.

Considering the extreme difficulty in getting all the DOT 4 out to put DOT 5 in when you can only clean brake systems with brake fluid purging or complete disassembly and cleaning with brake cleaner, I still don't think it is unfair.


Then why not explain it that way in the FAQ? Instead of inferring that even the proper use of DOT 5 will be "disasterous"?  :roll:


Just for you, I have removed all the red and bold text and re-re-edited the article. In the interest of fairiness, I've spelled out things more clearly.

Quote from: "ZenMan"
Quote from: "Red01"
Every site I've found that's got an article on brake fluid performance says DOT 5 is not for racing & high performance use


That is completely contradictory with the fact that name-brand companies are producing silicone fluid and selling it as racing fluid for competition applications:

"Russell's long life DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid was developed for severe service and competition applications."


That's a vendor advertising his product! I said articles on fluid performance.  :duh:

Quote from: "ZenMan"
"CASTROL SRF Brake Fluid (SILICONE)
Recommended for racing conditions only - this is the ultimate in racing brake fluid!"


And it is rated as a DOT 4!

Quote from: "ZenMan"
And another brand (Cartel), sold by Ire Racing :

"Silicone Brake Fluid (DOT 5)
         
Non Hygroscopic -Does not absorb water- thus eliminating corrosion and deterioration.
Dry boiling point exceeds 600 deg.
Compatiable with DOT 3, DOT 4, and foreign brake fluids.
Compatiable with natural and synthetic rubber compounds.
Never needs replacement.
Doesn't harm painted surfaces.
Lubricates moving parts.
Simple changeover - just perform normal brake bleeding job.
Packaged in 8 oz., 32 oz., 5 gallon and 55 gallon drums."

http://www.lreracing.com/silicone_brake_fluid.htm


OK, I'll give that one to you. You found a DOT 5 fluid that IS compatible with DOT 3/4. And @ $10.50 for a 12 oz bottle (on another site, your site didn't give a price), it seems a bargain in performance fluid. :thumb:

Quote from: "ZenMan"
And then you keep going on about compressibilty... from your PM:  

Quote from: "Red01"
From your Clearco link:
"In comparison to DOT 3 & 4 fluids (glycol-based fluids), Clearco DOT 5 it is a highly compressible fluid."
As I said before, highly compressible is not a good feature for brake fluid.


Again, quoted from the Dragtech link:

"Less compressibility of brake fluid will increase pedal feel (firmness), but in either case the effect is minimal."

As a matter of fact, I remember the slight sponginess of the silicone fluid... but as I've stated several times now, the effect is barely noticable, and the huge advantage of having fade-free brakes over the fade-fast glycol bikes made it more than worth it.


Is 2-3x more sponginess minimal? (That's from the brake systems engineer on the stoptech link.)
 And the fact that it gets even worse when the fluid is hot?
I guess it is to you and the folks at the Dragtech link.

And still, even though this effect is "minimal," the Dragtech site still has some reason to say not to use it in a race car.

Quote from: "ZenMan"
You still fail to answer important questions I've put to you... such as:

"If DOT 5 was as bad as your'e trying to make it out to be, then why haven't there been any lawsuits against all these manufacturers that make and sell it as racing brake fluid?"


Because it has a place. Generally, it's not the top choice for performance. You found one that was, two if you count the expensive DOT 4 rated Castrol silicon SRF.

You still have failed to provide non-advertising articles that tout it, or named any of all those racing teams that use it.

Quote from: "ZenMan"
Or:

"Can you find any evidence that DOT 5, used properly, has ever caused a crash?"


I tried to look, but I don't have the time. Given its realitive unpopularity in use, and the fact that its unlikely to be a current headline item. When race drivers had to pit to change their shorts after sinking brake pedals scared them and they converted back to glycol, it may even be non-existant.

Where's the crash data for DOT 4 used properly, if it's such a fade problem? :crackattack:

I, for one, like a firm brake pedal/lever and while that may not be a big deal to you, it is to me... that's opinion. :wink:

Quote from: "ZenMan"
Or:

"How can you dismiss the fact that DOT 5 is fade-free, and thus gives a huge advantage over fade-fast glycol fluid?"


Who's ignoring what? Have you looked at the numbers of DOT 5.1 & Super 4? They meet and exceed DOT 5 standards... and are readily available at nearby parts stores at affordable prices and can be installed in your common, everyday DOT 3 & 4 system simply.

Quote from: "ZenMan"
If you going to continue to ignore certain facts or questions I've stated, then why should I put all the effort forward to debate the rest of your long post? As I've said, for every con, there is a pro, and I'm tired of playing this game.


Because I did more than regurgitate ad copy... and all I'm asking is you do the same.

Quote from: "ZenMan"
I think "winning" this debate is more important to you than being objective, and you are trying to wear me down with long quotes and arguments. I think your own prejudices and need to defend your original position prevents you from conceding my points.  :stickpoke:   :wink:

I think that you painted yourself in a corner with your initial extreme reaction and ensuing negativity towards my DOT 5 comments, and now you'd rather drag it on forever than admit you over-reacted.  :stickpoke:   :wink:

No problem, I've found myself in that position before too, and being just as stubborn, also found it difficult to find a graceful way to concede.  :roll:


:lol: I have conceeded to valid points. I have even went in and changed the FAQ to reflect that, yet you still refuse to accept there are good products out there that meet or beat DOT 5 basics and pose no risk to the hazards of changing from one system to the other.

...have we even mentioned that DOT 5 is not suitable for ABS systems in the public part of our debate? I suppose this is important since there's ABS versions of the 1G B12 and the new 1250.

Quote from: "ZenMan"
Therefore, I'm going to stop here. I really mean it this time!  :bandit:

I don't want an unending argument about brake fluid to come between friends, and I do consider you one. In fact we are a lot alike, stubborn as mules. I'm looking forward to meeting you someday and laughing about all this.  :lol:

I'll even bring the DOT 5 if you bring the beer...   :bandit:

No hard feelings.  :bigok:


I'm not as stubborn as you. :wink: :tongue: :stickpoke:
I may be the mule, but you're the camel. :lol:

Keep the DOT 5, bring tequila instead. :singing:
Paul
2001 GSF1200S
(04/2001-03/2012)
2010 Concours 14ABS
(07/2010-current)


Offline Red01

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2007, 04:52:05 PM »
:shock: This just in....

I got this PM from Zen:

Quote from: "ZenMan"
I will concede there are other choices these days besides DOT 5 that will work as good or better on the race track.


:thanks: Z! I finally got a point across.  :clap:

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program...  :bandit:
Paul
2001 GSF1200S
(04/2001-03/2012)
2010 Concours 14ABS
(07/2010-current)


Offline ZenMan

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2007, 09:24:31 PM »
Quote from: "Red01"
:shock: This just in....

I got this PM from Zen:

Quote from: "ZenMan"
I will concede there are other choices these days besides DOT 5 that will work as good or better on the race track.


:thanks: Z! I finally got a point across.  :clap:

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program...  :bandit:


Hey, I was gonna put that up here...  :roll:

Well, if you're gonna post my PM, then post the whole thing, not just the part where I actually conceded something:

Quote from: "Red01"
When try as I might to see why you are such an adamant supporter of it


Actually, my main objective from the start of this whole thing was to convince you to change your FAQ post from the big, scary red warning "WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T USE DOT 5 BRAKE FLUID!!!" to something more objective, informative, and unbiased.

I see you've done that. Thank you... much better!  :congrats:

Quote from: "Red01"
just extreme cold weather, show vehicles, antiques and one source that recommended it for vehicles that sit for long periods of time without moving... which some show & antiques might fall under.


Well, we've come a long way from "disastrous results", haven't we?  :wink:

Quote from: "Red01"
But I have conceeded on some points. You seem to be completely unyeilding to the facts presented that DOT 5 is not today's best high performance brake fluid.
I'm still waiting for your industry supporting links.  :stickpoke:


Well, you're gonna wait a long time. I'm pretty much satisfied with your new FAQ post. I don't see much point in doing this:  :deadhorse:  or this:  :yesno:  anymore.  :lol:

I will concede there are other choices these days besides DOT 5 that will work as good or better on the race track. What I liked the most about the stuff is it's resistance to fade versus the quickly-fading glycol. After 5 or 6 laps, it becomes a huge advantage when out-braking the competition into the corners. The sponginess wasn't a big deal.

So, as you've probably seen in the "Brake Drag" thread, I'm all done now. The natives are getting restless, time we gave them a break. It was fun though, aye?  :bandit:

Yer buddy Zen  :grin:
"Hmmm... near certainty of death with little chance of success... what are we waiting for?"

Offline ZenMan

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2007, 09:29:22 PM »
Quote from: "Red01"
Keep the DOT 5, bring tequila instead.

Oh no! Not tequila! Every time I drink that stuff I end up in jail...  :iddi:

How 'bout some nice Coronas with a little Jim Beam to wash them down with?  :bandit:
"Hmmm... near certainty of death with little chance of success... what are we waiting for?"

Offline orionburn

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2007, 09:53:09 AM »
Quote from: "Nitro_Fluffy"
Do you two ever stop? You've both made your points and it looks like neither of you are going to give up.


I've seen married couples that didn't take this long to settle an argument  :lol:  

I was wondering if you did get your brake issue figured out.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.

87 FZR1000
03 Bandit 1200S

Offline ZenMan

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2007, 10:54:33 AM »
Quote from: "orionburn"
I've seen married couples that didn't take this long to settle an argument  :lol:  

I was wondering if you did get your brake issue figured out.


Not really. I just finally let her (oops- I mean HIM!  :lol: ) have he... uh, HIS way.  :roll:  

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
"Hmmm... near certainty of death with little chance of success... what are we waiting for?"

Offline Red01

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2007, 11:24:54 AM »
:roll: Whatever...  :duh:
Paul
2001 GSF1200S
(04/2001-03/2012)
2010 Concours 14ABS
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Offline ZenMan

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2007, 11:30:33 AM »
Quote from: "Red01"
:roll: Whatever...  :duh:


Just farkin' with ya, buddy!  :lol:  :wink:
"Hmmm... near certainty of death with little chance of success... what are we waiting for?"

Offline Nitro

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2007, 11:47:19 AM »
LMAO! What was the original question?
97 Bandit 1200S

Offline Red01

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2007, 11:59:22 AM »
Actually, there never was an original question - just statements and a conclusion.
Paul
2001 GSF1200S
(04/2001-03/2012)
2010 Concours 14ABS
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Offline orionburn

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2007, 12:58:32 PM »
Quote from: "Red01"
Actually, there never was an original question - just statements and a conclusion.


There was a conclusion....when did that happen?  :stickpoke:
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.

87 FZR1000
03 Bandit 1200S

Offline Red01

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Front Brake drag (and brake fluid debate)
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2007, 12:59:43 PM »
Quote from: "orionburn"
Quote from: "Red01"
Actually, there never was an original question - just statements and a conclusion.


There was a conclusion....when did that happen?  :stickpoke:


It all happened in the first post.  
Look how far we managed to drag that out. :lol:
Paul
2001 GSF1200S
(04/2001-03/2012)
2010 Concours 14ABS
(07/2010-current)