New 1250 Engine Noise (and Octane revisited)

[ZenMan]

I was gonna leave this alone, but since you insist...  

I mentioned before that I have my own reasons for running premium gas in my new B1250... reasons that are not mentioned in all your posts both here and in the pages of posts in the FAQ's... and that is detergent additives.

We have two stations in town... Citgo and Shell. Shell happens to use some very good detergent additive packages in their premium gas. This is particular important when you have fuel injection like I do. The octane is not as important to me as keeping my injectors clean, and the valves and combustion chamber free of deposits.

This is also important with any brand-new engine that you are just breaking in. For the first 3000 miles, I prefer to use gas that has good detergents exclusively. After that, I'll be alternating between premium and regular to save a couple bucks, but I'll always use Shell premium every other tank to keep my injectors clean and valves deposit-free.

You might find this article interesting:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/us10325.htm

You can argue if you like, but you won't change my choice of what gas I put in my bike. All the talk about octane is fine, and should be put out there for everyone to make well-informed choices. But there's more to it than just octane, so to be truly well-informed I suggest doing some research on detergents and other additives that are used in premium gas.

Ultimately it comes down to personal choice, and one's own economical priorities. I choose to pay a little more for gas that has good detergent additives. I have a low-mileage, fuel-injected motorcycle. If you have carbs and your bike happens to have a good number of miles on her, then choosing to save a few bucks by using regular makes sense to me. That's totally up to you... more power to ya!  

[Red01]

Not trying to refire the arguement... just thought it was odd you wouldn't tell me what the OM said.  

[ZenMan]

Not trying to refire the arguement... just thought it was odd you wouldn't tell me what the OM said.  

Just to make you work for it.  

[pmackie]

Even a couple of "gas" guys have this same debate. Cargo7 (my Shell friend) uses Premium exclusively, and I use whatever is convenient, usually regular.

Premium fuel from major companies DOES typically have additional detergent adpak...Ron tells me Shell V-Power has approx double the treat rate of Shell Bronze (regular). Esso also increases the treat rate, and actual lab engine tests confirm that the additional detergent CAN help keep the intake side of the engine cleaner. Premium can also have higher fuel density (in the range of 2%) which might assist fuel economy.

On the flip side, lower turnover in station fuel tanks tends to result in some loss of vapor pressure (really only an issue in the winter) over time, and may have a higher risk of picking up some water. The cost is obviously higher, and on the mileage that most bikes accumulate, the intake side tends to stay squeeky clean on regular.

My take, unless you need the extra octane for something (higher compression, pinging problems, high loads at sea level, extreme temperatures,  etc) your just spending some extra money for premium, but the bike WILL be fine.

[Red01]

You might find this article interesting:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/us10325.htm

You're right, it is interesting.  
Especially this part:

Most vehicles do not need premium. A few do specify premium fuel in the owners manual, but these are mostly high-performance turbocharged or supercharged engines. The average vehicle should not need the extra octane unless it has a problem or a lot of miles and a heavy buildup of deposits in the combustion chambers. Then it might be worth the extra 20 to 30 cents more per gallon for premium.

As our resident POL pro, pmackie, points out, regular still has those detergent additives, just not normally in as high a percentage.

Regular seems to be doing a good enough job keeping the injectors clean in my 18 year old, 150K mile, Jeep truck and my 13 year old, 230K mile. Geo Tracker, both of which are injected. Worked just fine in other FI cars I've owned and racked up the miles in as well. I do run premium in my supercharged car though... but then the OM recommends (but does not insist) it. (It's ECU will compensate for lower octane should you run it, but so far finding premium has never been a problem.)

I'm not trying to change your mind. Just putting facts out. Anyone that knows the facts and still wants to run whatever they run is fine with me. It has no effect on MY wallet. I just want folks to know what they're doing. A lot of people DON'T know. The oil companies aren't gonna come out and tell them not to spend the extra coin on super because they don't need it.

[ZenMan]

Well, you can cherry-pick the parts that support your bias all ya want, but the FACT is premium gas DOES have mo' betta detergent adds.    

 

[Red01]

Whatever. I said my piece and like I said, I'm not trying to change your mind.

Will my clothes get cleaner if I use twice as much soap?  

[ZenMan]

Will my clothes get cleaner if I use twice as much soap?  

If you were only using a spoonful in the first place, hell yeah they'll get cleaner with twice as much.  

[heath3n]

I feel like I'm watching a chess match, only it's not as exciting.  

[Barbarian]

My biggest beef is seemingly contradictory explanations from the dealer, and what's in the manual.

The dealer told me I needed 91 octane in my Bandit, which strictly speaking is *not* what it says in the manual.

from page 3-2
FUEL
Use unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher (Research method). Unleaded gasoline can extend spark plug life and exhaust components' life.
If pinging or knocking is experienced, substitute higher octane grade gasoline or another brande, because there are differences between brands.
(For Canada)
Your motorcycle requires regular unleaded gasoline with a minimum pump octane rating of 87 ((R+M)/2 method). In some areas, the only fuels that are available are oxygenated fuels.

Sounds like you should be filling up with premium stuff, right? Especially when you consider the 10.5: 1 engine compression. But that's not actually the case.

Gas in Canada and the U.S. is typically sold by the Road Octane Number, which is about 5 points lower than the Research Octane Number specified in that first paragraph. (road octane is the average of Research octane and Motor octane... and motor octane is always much lower... it's performance under load)

In other words:
87 Octane in North America = 91/92 Octane in Europe. So fill up with regular.


I've got nothing to say about detergents except look at the oil company websites yourself.

[Nitro]

I feel like I'm watching a chess match, only it's not as exciting.  

LMAO! Yeah, those two guys never stop.

[leedogg]

I put 93 in for my first tank...then I read the manual-  ran 87 ever since...I can't tell the difference- runs fine for me.  i am fine with it.

[ZenMan]

I feel like I'm watching a chess match, only it's not as exciting.  

LMAO! Yeah, those two guys never stop.

Hey, just so you know... I really like ol' Red, he's a good guy and knows way more about Bandits than I ever will. That doesn't mean he's always right about everything, though.  

We just both happen to be stubborn, opinionated old farts, that's all. (I bet he disagrees with me about that, too!)  

[Nitro]

I'd wager a dollar on that.

[Red01]

I'd wager a dollar on that.

You loose... I agree we're both stubborn opinionated old farts.

I'm just the younger, better looking one of the two.